TOPPING D90SE Updates to D90 III Discrete

[skasundr]

I wonder what method is used for the volume control? Whether in the digital or analogue domains. There is no mention on the product pages or the User Manual.

If I had to bet, it is probably their basic digital control at this price point. I also think they would have made a bigger point of it in the promo material if it was passive analog preamp/R2R volume control.

 

[LucyWu]

As I noted earlier in the thread the DSD signal path, if left intact (no dsp tomfoolery performed prior to decoding), does not lend itself to digital volume control.

 

[Lucus]

If I had to bet, it is probably their basic digital control at this price point. I also think they would have made a bigger point of it in the promo material if it was passive analog preamp/R2R volume control.

I hope it is digital...Much better than any analog/R2R attenuation. I don't understand the hype about these kind of volume control: As soon as you introduce distortion/coloration in the sound, people are getting enthusiastic....

 

[Edward Ng]

I hope it is digital...Much better than any analog/R2R attenuation. I don't understand the hype about these kind of volume control: As soon as you introduce distortion/coloration in the sound, people are getting enthusiastic....

For PCM source material, you may be right, but for DSD source material, digital volume control requires a double conversion on a DAC like this one, from DSD to PCM, then digital volume adjustment, then conversion back to DSD for the 1-bit digital to analog conversion to occur. With a separate, analog volume control (an advanced, resistor-ladder type volume attenuator such as the one in the L70 or Schiit Kara), you avoid that, so DSD source material can go straight through to analog before attenuation, and even PCM material, which has to get converted to DSD no matter what in order for this 1-bit DAC to convert to analog, will fare no worse for the wear, so in the case of a 1-bit, an analog domain volume control is the desired configuration.

On a delta-sigma DAC, digital domain volume control is mostly fine because everything has to be converted to PCM for the delta-sigma conversion from digital to analog can occur anyway, so DSD source material can be attenuated after conversion to PCM and before conversion to analog.

-Ed

 

[skasundr]

As I noted earlier in the thread the DSD signal path, if left intact (no dsp tomfoolery performed prior to decoding), does not lend itself to digital volume control.

Maybe DSD sans tomfoolery is most likely only in DAC only mode without volume control?

 

[skasundr]

Maybe DSD sans tomfoolery is most likely only in DAC only mode without volume control?

I found this in the user manual, and this is one of the menu settings.

 

[Edward Ng]

I found this in the user manual, and this is one of the menu settings.

Thanks. Sounds like I will be keeping my L70 for preamp duties!

-Ed

 

[sendler2112]

So, the Topping D90 discrete is capable of DSD direct (similar to the Gustard A26 with its AK4499EX chips) which opens up the opportunity of trying the outboard conversion of PCM files to DSD via HQ Player.

 

[Chardonnay]

I found this in the user manual, and this is one of the menu settings.

Thanks for picking that up, looks like I missed it when skimming through to User Manual. This makes sense given native DSD reproduction. So, my Pre90 remains when my E70 Velvet gets passed down to one of the kids. I have a largish DSD library under ROON control so, as part of this hobby, I try to aim for native DSD decoding. Looking forward to trying this new decoder, and interested in Edward Ng's thoughts on differences to the E70 Velvet when his D903D arrives. Stock in Australia is on backorder, so waiting.

 

[skasundr]

So, the Topping D90 discrete is capable of DSD direct (similar to the Gustard A26 with its AK4499EX chips) which opens up the opportunity of trying the outboard conversion of PCM files to DSD via HQ Player.

https://signalyst.com/dac-correction-support/

This looks like a list of most of the DACs that can do DSD direct.

 

[rickmcinnis]

I have had my D90 Discretes for almost a month and can tell you that it takes some time for them to bloom.

When new I thought they sounded just about the same as the D90III with more rhythm but now, after running them with music constantly for almost a month there is something very fine happening with these. I use one per channel in a bi-amped system.

They have acquired a lucidity and a beautiful sound that has taken me completely by surprise. There is something very fine happening with this DAC but you must give it time and keep music playing ALL of the time initially. I do not plan on ever turning them off.

I would suspect we are getting 95% of what the insane DACs are giving. To be fair - I have never heard an insane DAC - just my assumption based on how different the thing sounds after settling in and the beauty of the sound.

 

[Edward Ng]

I have had my D90 Discretes for almost a month and can tell you that it takes some time for them to bloom.

When new I thought they sounded just about the same as the D90III with more rhythm but now, after running them with music constantly for almost a month there is something very fine happening with these. I use one per channel in a bi-amped system.

They have acquired a lucidity and a beautiful sound that has taken me completely by surprise. There is something very fine happening with this DAC but you must give it time and keep music playing ALL of the time initially. I do not plan on ever turning them off.

I would suspect we are getting 95% of what the insane DACs are giving. To be fair - I have never heard an insane DAC - just my assumption based on how different the thing sounds after settling in and the beauty of the sound.

You're using dual DACs in a bi-amped system?!

-Ed

 

[skasundr]

I have had my D90 Discretes for almost a month and can tell you that it takes some time for them to bloom.

When new I thought they sounded just about the same as the D90III with more rhythm but now, after running them with music constantly for almost a month there is something very fine happening with these. I use one per channel in a bi-amped system.

They have acquired a lucidity and a beautiful sound that has taken me completely by surprise. There is something very fine happening with this DAC but you must give it time and keep music playing ALL of the time initially. I do not plan on ever turning them off.

I would suspect we are getting 95% of what the insane DACs are giving. To be fair - I have never heard an insane DAC - just my assumption based on how different the thing sounds after settling in and the beauty of the sound.

I agree that you definitely need to be patient. I’m approaching 100 hours of just normal listening and it is still seemingly improving, but the first 50 hours made a huge improvement in sound like you described.

 

[sendler2112]

https://signalyst.com/dac-correction-support/

This looks like a list of most of the DACs that can do DSD direct.

No. That is the list of DACs that HQ Player has developed a DAC specific correction pipeline. That is a different consideration where they have measured the DACs and improved the analog output. The designer does not reveal what the correction involves but it does improve the subjective sonics of the Cyan2 for example.

DSD direct capability of a DAC simply refers to the ability to send an incoming native DSD stream straight to the digital to analog conversion (DAC) section without first going through any oversampling or modulating inside the unit.

HQ Player can convert our PCM wave files to DSD before sending it out to the DAC so as to take advantage of the much higher processing power of a computer compared to the limited processing that can be built into a $1,000 DAC.

But, to do wave to DSD conversion with HQ Player, and especially when adding the additional load of DAC specific correction for those models that have been studied for it, the processing power requirement is immense and pretty much requires a high end gaming PC.

 

[Edward Ng]

Got a response back from Topping that they are able to attenuate volume digitally without converting DSD streams to PCM to do it.

-Ed