[TheTalbotHound]

Review of the D90SE

 

[bogi]

HS01 requires another USB cable (included) to be added to connect from the HS01 to the PC.

Yes, that's pity. It looks like the designers would break ground loop but would not have audiophile thinking. Cables and connectors cannot do anything other than add some distortion, like any other element in the chain. Best cable is no cable and best connector is no connector.

IDK if Topping has different HS01 sub-models with different connectors built-in on either side of the HS01, but I'd like one with a USB-A Male connector built-in to the PC Side of the HS01.

Correct. I have no idea if HS01 addresses also high frequency noise on power and ground wires or if it only filters common mode noise (ground loop current). If HF filtering is also the case, then it has to be placed as near to computer USB port as possible, ideally directly plugged into it.

I'm looking forward to your further impressions.

 

[hmscott]

I've just opened the HS01 box and plugged it in, and - so far it is working. No noise so far, but these are really first reaction comments - I'm not trying to induce noise - I need to set up GPU tests to generate the noise I heard before, and so this isn't the review.

Oddly, there was a sizeable delay from when I plugged in the USB-A cable end from the HS01 into the PC before sound came out into my headphones - which is odd because the iFi iDefender+ has a much shorter delay. I never noticed a delay with the iDefender+, but the delay with the HS01 was long enough I thought perhaps something was wrong, then audio started up. The HS01 has a 2.5-3 second delay vs the iDefender+ with a less than 1 second delay, and it happens every time I plug in the HS01.

A couple of notes... first the HS01 requires another USB cable (included) to be added to connect from the HS01 to the PC. IDK why Topping didn't build in a USB-A Male connector into the HS01 like iFi did for the iDefender+, as a built in Male Connector does away with the need for another USB cable in the connection chain.

The HS01 has a USB-B Female connector built-in at the PC side, and a USB-A Female connector at the DAC side. The USB-A DAC side connection makes sense, and I was able to plug in my existing cable USB-A end into the HS01.

IDK if Topping has different HS01 sub-models with different connectors built-in on either side of the HS01, but I'd like one with a USB-A Male connector built-in to the PC Side of the HS01.

If the PC end of the HS01 also had a USB-A Female connector instead of the USB-B Female connector it has, I could have used one of my shielded USB-A to USB-A short cables, but instead I had to use the thin (unshielded?) cable Topping provided in the box - or a shielded long USB-B to USB-A DAC cable I already have, I think the shortest I have is a 1/2M, Zero length provided by a built in USB-A Male connector would have been ideal, expected.

I haven't tried connecting a 5V USB-C connection to the HS01 yet.

Even so, I'm not rushing on this testing, it may happen this coming weekend if all goes to plan...(things have come up, likely going to not have time this Holiday).

To leave on a positive note, the HS01 has a great metal build, that was/is a very positive upgrade to the plastic iDefender+ - but IDK how much the metal case really affects the functionality, but it is very nice

Update: The HS01 Metal body is getting "Hot", which isn't something it should be doing if it were only "breaking" the ground loop... the HS01 is doing something "else" too. By "Hot" I mean it's more than simply "Warm", after only a few minutes it gets too warm. The iDefender+ runs cool to the touch, even after hours of use.

Update: Using an infra-red Thermometer (set to "object", not "body") the HS01 reads 78.4F vs 68.8F for the iDefender+, and 71.1F for my PC (side), D90 MQA (front) 76.5F, TA-20 (right side, tube area) 82.9F, ambient is 68F (heater off for 1 hour).

Ok, more later...

Yes, that's pity. It looks like the designers would break ground loop but would not have audiophile thinking. Cables and connectors cannot do anything other than add some distortion, like any other element in the chain. Best cable is no cable and best connector is no connector.

Correct. I have no idea if HS01 addresses also high frequency noise on power and ground wires or if it only filters common mode noise (ground loop current). If HF filtering is also the case, then it has to be placed as near to computer USB port as possible, ideally directly plugged into it.

I'm looking forward to your further impressions.

I have made a few posts about the Topping HS01 on ASR:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...90-balanced-usb-dac-review.10519/post-1008809
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...90-balanced-usb-dac-review.10519/post-1009820
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...90-balanced-usb-dac-review.10519/post-1009839

12/13 - I've asked Topping through Hifigo some questions via email:

My question that Topping's answer applies to: "It would be nice to know if the HS01 is a true Galvanic USB Isolator, and if it is why did Topping leave "Galvanic Isolator" out of their product name/description."

From Topping through Hifigo => "We confirmed with Topping, it is not Galvanic."

 

[Kamil21]

I have made a few posts about the Topping HS01 on ASR:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...90-balanced-usb-dac-review.10519/post-1008809
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...90-balanced-usb-dac-review.10519/post-1009820
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...90-balanced-usb-dac-review.10519/post-1009839

I've asked Topping through Hifigo some questions via email:

12/13 - From Topping through Hifigo => "We confirmed with Topping, it is not Galvanic."

When Topping say “It is not Galvanic” do they mean the output is NOT galvanically isolated or it IS isolated? Hope something is not lost in translation.

 

[hmscott]

When Topping say “It is not Galvanic” do they mean the output is NOT galvanically isolated or it IS isolated? Hope something is not lost in translation.

My question that Topping's answer applies to: "It would be nice to know if the HS01 is a true Galvanic USB Isolator, and if it is why did Topping leave "Galvanic Isolator" out of their product name/description."

I asked more questions to try to get a more specific answer but that is all that came back from Topping "We confirmed with Topping, it is not Galvanic.".

Hopefully over time more specific details of what Topping has implemented with the HS01 will be published by Topping.

 

[bogi]

"We confirmed with Topping, it is not Galvanic."

iDefender which is not 'true galvanic isolator' does not get so hot, so I am curious how it works.
iFi also on beginning didn't tell how it works. It came later.

 

[hmscott]

iDefender which is not 'true galvanic isolator' does not get so hot, so I am curious how it works.
iFi also on beginning didn't tell how it works. It came later.

Yup, pretty typical these days, running faster than they can to get new products out the door, the documentation and justifications follow

There are likely still details of the iDefender+ remaining unpublished, and I wouldn't expect iFi nor Topping to release proprietary advances they've worked hard to gain.

Both are certainly serviceable for me. I'm still swapping in the Topping HS01 - many times - and there are times I think the HS01 "sounds better", then I swap back to the iFi iDefender+ with/without the iFi iSilencer+ and right now I'm preferring the iFi iDefender+ alone, but sometimes I leave the HS01 in for long periods of time and the Topping HS01 performs nicely.

In essence both provide admirable service in the removal of PC GPU generated noise, and they are both inexpensive enough to buy both to keep and swap back and forth, and decide for yourself which you prefer

 

[gdwwilliam]

I have the d90se. It seems to me that the topping's USB driver does not work really well with different source formats. Sometimes I can hear some clipping noise when I switch from 44.1 to 192.

 

[hmscott]

I have the d90se. It seems to me that the topping's USB driver does not work really well with different source formats. Sometimes I can hear some clipping noise when I switch from 44.1 to 192.

There doesn't seem to be a Topping rep here on Head-fi.org, but on audiosciencereview, in the D90SE thread, @JohnYang1997 answers direct questions for Topping products. Here are John's posts in the D90SE thread: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?search/30236438/
You could ask John directly in that thread about what you are hearing with your D90SSE, and how to fix it. Or, try service@tpdz.net , or sales@tpdz.net

 

[gdwwilliam]

There doesn't seem to be a Topping rep here on Head-fi.org, but on audiosciencereview, in the D90SE thread, @JohnYang answers direct questions for Topping products. Here are John's posts in the D90SE thread: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?search/30236438/
You could ask John directly in that thread about what you are hearing with your D90SSE, and how to fix it.

Thanks. I have already solved it by using Hq player to upsample all formats to 768k.

 

[bogi]

Thanks. I have already solved it by using Hq player to upsample all formats to 768k.

If your computer performance allows that, I suggest you to try to convert everything to DSD256 rate, ASDM5ECv2 as modulator and poly-sinc-gauss-long or poly-sinc-ext2 as oversampling filters. You can try the same on DSD128 rate if DSD256 doesn't work.

 

[hmscott]

Thanks. I have already solved it by using Hq player to upsample all formats to 768k.

If your computer performance allows that, I suggest you to try to convert everything to DSD256 rate, ASDM5ECv2 as modulator and poly-sinc-gauss-long or poly-sinc-ext2 as oversampling filters. You can try the same on DSD128 rate if DSD256 doesn't work.

Heck guys, this seems counter productive, rearranging the bits into another form, when the original bits are just fine. To me a better solution would be to get the DAC manufacturer to handle gapless transitions and bit rate / bit depth transitions without annoying blips in the playback.

But hey, if it all sounds the same to you, I guess it's a fix!, Ship It!

 

[bogi]

rearranging the bits into another form, when the original bits are just fine

If you don't do that in your computer software, DAC will do that. That's the truth. Every delta sigma DAC oversamples any PCM content up to about 10 MHz with not very perfect algorithms. At that about 10 MHz rate PCM content (yes, still PCM) comes to input of delta sigma modulator. Then the output of delta sigma modulator (we are still in digital domain!), which is similar to DSD signal (unary coded, not binary), is low pass filtered to get analog signal. So the actual D/A conversion begins at output of delta sigma modulator. Everything before that point is digital processing on low cost and low performance hardware (compared to your PC). To summarize: No need to preserve 'the fine bits' because your DAC will change them significantly before they are converted to analog. Either you change 'the perfect bits' in software or DAC will change them. You can substitute one with the other. Quality matters.

Other thing is why he got dropouts previously. No information what for player and settings he used before.

 

[hmscott]

If you don't do that in your computer software, DAC will do that. That's the truth. Every delta sigma DAC oversamples any PCM content up to about 10 MHz with not very perfect algorithms. At that about 10 MHz rate PCM content (yes, still PCM) comes to input of delta sigma modulator. Then the output of delta sigma modulator (we are still in digital domain!), which is similar to DSD signal (unary coded, not binary), is low pass filtered to get analog signal. So the actual D/A conversion begins at output of delta sigma modulator. Everything before that point is digital processing on low cost and low performance hardware (compared to your PC). To summarize: No need to preserve 'the fine bits' because your DAC will change them significantly before they are converted to analog. Either you change 'the perfect bits' in software or DAC will change them. You can substitute one with the other. Quality matters.

Other thing is why he got dropouts previously. No information what for player and settings he used before.

Yes, that is why I suggested he get it fixed in firmware by Topping, starting by inquiring with @JohnYang on ASR in the D90SE DAC review thread, where John hangs out among other threads to take feedback and answer questions about Topping products. Bugs get fixed this way quickly, for everyone, not just one person or group that found a workaround not available to everyone that can't implement the workaround on their source devices.

Besides, what is reported on the D90SE has been reported by others, and so I'd still recommend ganging up on Topping and making them fix through firmware or RMA, or unit replacement. Why pay almost $1000 and live with a rinky-dink solution? It should simply work, just like the D90 and D90 MQA.

Speaking of MQA, for those users muddling the bits in the source after getting them from the Tidal App / Uapp+Tidal would screw up the unfolding, so no solution there for all of the Tidal users - me being one, which is why this came to mind. Fix the transition handling in the D90SE, or if the source has a failing - does it really? - then get an intermediate device that can handshake quick enough with the D90SE. Common practice for USB rate conversions with USB Hubs in that context.

BTW, the FiiO M15 has an ALL-TO-DSD feature to convert all incoming PCM internally to DSD because the AKM4499 uses that format internally and can process faster if all the data is in DSD format if ALL-TO-DSD is enabled in a DAC, with that DAC chip. So there is precedence for pre-converting PCM for better / faster performance from the DAC used.

Anyway, I've said my piece, ASR and @JohnYang1997 are waiting, as is service@tpdz.net , or sales@tpdz.net , as they are all there to help you make your expensive hardware work for you as you expect it to perform, without workarounds.

Why not let Topping earn their money?

 

[bogi]

It should simply work, just like the D90 and D90 MQA.

Of course I agree ... and not only for $900 device. There are some troubles with more Topping devices in the last year. But troubles gdwwilliam reported can be related to concrete player, digital interface (WASAPI, ASIO...), ASIO buffer settings or USB2.0 port too.

Speaking of MQA, for those users muddling the bits in the source after getting them from the Tidal App / Uapp+Tidal would screw up the unfolding

My suggestion is to avoid MQA where possible. MQA is lossy format and it adds mirror images of audio band as high frequency content instead of real original HF content. Confirmed by reverse engineering and measurements. MQA is a trick how to get more money from us customers and it is also an attempt of labels to more control music distribution. MQA fails at the point that it makes DSP an issue (requires licensed decoder) and therefore it goes against the world of free or low cost software and single low cost hardware DSP solutions. Asking us for more money for lossy content, making devices more expensive because of MQA decoder and restricting our possibilities to perform any DSP as we wish (software volume control, replay gain, 5.1 to stereo, room eq correction, headphone crossfeed, simple equalization...) is not in our interest. Qobuz on the other side provides large collection of true lossless hires content and nice collection of standard 44.1k lossless content. Deezer has yet larger lossless library and Amazon is also good choice. No DSP issue with lossless content from other providers than Tidal.

starting by inquiring with @JohnYang on ASR

He was helpful on ASR forum but his last post is from Dec 11.