[slaters70]

Not to start any flame wars, but I have come to the conclusion that most "top tier" IEMs with MSRPs of $300 or more (even some in the $250 range) are flat out overpriced,and simply not worth the price of admission. In essence, if you can get them for $200-$225 (or preferably less) through some miracle sale (Amazon/Logitech TF10s sale, for example, or Dell's MTPC sale), then fine. But paying close to full price for any of them, and I mean any of them, is never worth the investment.
 
Why do I say that? Could be because I have owned the Monster Coppers/Golds, IE8, W2, UM3X, W3, SM3, CK10 and TF10 - a decent number in other words - of "top tier" IEMs, and at this point, find that a $150 pair of Russian dual driver BAs and a $40 pair of out of production dynamics (Cyclone PR1 Pros) more than satisfy my listening needs. Admittedly, I have not heard the e-Q7,SE-530, FX-700, CK100s or the Monster MDs (or any others I have missed).
 
My thought is not that I have lowered my expectations. Quite the contrary. I feel that the manufacturers of those high end IEMs have basically pulled a smoke and mirrors feat, having people believe that paying sometimes ridiculous amounts of cash for universal IEMs really is worth it.
 
No matter which top tier IEM I tried, something was not right. The IE8s and SM3s sounded veiled, way too warm, no sparkle (a personal listening preference, admittedly). The UM3X? Dull, uninvolving. The CK10s were pretty good, but (I admit it, okay?) bass was a little MIA, and they hurt my ears to wear them (I know others find them comfy, which is great). The TF10s? Even at $99 I didn't keep a pair. Way too clunky a fit. The W3s? Unless I used a triple flange and EQ'd the treble, the short tips made them nothing but sibilant. With the triples and the EQ, they were good, but not great.
 
You get my point. The idea is supposed to be that the more you pay for universal IEMs, the law of diminishing returns kicks in (the more you pay, the smaller the incremental improvement). But I now believe that the diminishing returns have gotten even more diminished (in my case, the returns are non-existent) as more companies are starting to deliver excellent sound without the high price tags.
 
When I read LFF's review of the DBAs, I was skeptical. But I thought why not try another pair of IEMs, I was still not completely happy with any expensive universals I have owned. When he said his friends who have JH13s love the DBAs, but his family/friends who like bloated bass and other "colored" phones didn't, he sounded like he might be onto something (he told me that via PM).
 
Anyway, just some food for thought. The amount of energy expended here on the top tier IEMs has been fascinating, and I have been part of it. But I think I hit some sort of "aha" moment with the DBAs. I really do. Not saying everyone will agree ... I am not insane. But my guess is even if I tried/heard the rest of the top tier universals out there, I would still be fine with the DBAs. Can it be I have made peace with this silly Holy Grail chase?
 
I know one thing, almost for sure. The next time I spend any money on relatively expensive IEMs, they will be customs. Which ones? JH5s? JH7s? JH13s? UM Mage? I have no idea right now. But I think I am done with universals above the $100-$150 mark. Heck, I might even get my extra pair of DBAs reshelled. That would cost me $200 more, though, and the sound probably would not improve. I guess I will stick with the UM56/Ety triples on the DBAs.
 
Right now, I am sitting at the pool, listening to my new ZuneHD, with the lowly $40 PR1 Pros in my ears, no EQ, no amp. They sound amazing to me, as does the music, no matter which genre pops up. I have the DBAs with me, but don't want to risk getting water in them. Life is good!
 
Of course, there's always the possibility that my ears suck. But I don't think so.
 
 

 

[ericp10]

Hmmmm? I think its each person's individual choice and preference and how they hear sound. Some points you made about some top tiers I wholehearted agree with (I couldn't keep the TF10s either, although I paid the $100 range). On the other hand, the SM3, e-Q7, FX700, and MD (a little less on the Cooper) have all lived up to the hype for me. Do I wish each one cost a $100 less? Of course I do. And many I have been able to sniff out a more desirable price before purchasing. But of those I paid full price - or close to it - I don't regret it. As a matter of fact I can't think of any IEM in the top tier that I paid a relatively premium price for  and later regretted it. Well, if I think hard enough, I can come up with one,  the IE8. But here's a testament to these IEMs being worth the price: most of the top tier IEMs I've owned and decided to sell for whatever reason I've gotten very close to the original price I paid for it in the sale. 
 
As for the SM3, I personally disagree with your assessment and think it's worth the close to $400 I paid. Would I have preferred to pay $300? Yes (or less). But a somewhat MSRP IEM, such as the FX700, I think it is very close in performance (although different sound sigs) as the SM3. So I don't equate the more expensive IEMs as the end all to the rest of the competition. Indeed,  the $150 Radius DDM sounds way better to me than the Monster Copper or MD. It boils down to the individual ear and what you're seeking sound wise. If something absolutely pleases your senses, and you have the money for it, you don't really care how much it cost as long as it delivers.
 
By the way, I've heard the DBA through a loaner, and while pleasant, it really didn't impress me at all. And I don't think one could argue it's because I'm one who loves bloated bass, because I owned the HF5 and loved it! The DBA has way more bass in it than the HF5.

 

[tagosaku]

Very cool. I think the greatest thing about head-fi is the help to find what you can be happy with. Think Confucius pointed out the importance of 'learning to be content'.
 
However, not sure if you can generalize like that. At least for me, Shure 500s are well worth the price difference with 300 series

 

[slaters70]

 
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Just a personal observation. I got tired of chasing my tail, in a way, and decided the DBAs meet the criteria I set out for myself a long time ago (like 5 years ago). The way I hear them, they are the best possible universal IEM for me, as the ones that cost much more, that I owned, just didn't impress anywhere near their price point. Could be I heard them with the wrong fit/tips, just as could have been the case for you with the DBAs.
 
The real irony is I was lucky enough to pay much less for many of my top tier IEMs, not all, and I STILL didn't want to keep them. That speaks volumes for my personal journey in trying to find the best-sounding IEMs, in my view.
 
And the Radius DDM is a good example of what I am talking about in terms of up and coming companies that are raising the bar, though I have never heard them nor am I tempted to buy them due to their ergonomics.
 
My SM3 experience had some highs, figuratively speaking, but on balance, they just sounded too warm/laid back on the treble side of the house, plain and simple. I am not alone on that one, I don't think.
 
Anyway, enjoy those universals. My view is that based on observation from some HFers I respect, the custom route is the only way to go, and today's custom makers, JH Audio and the like, are bring some pretty impressive customs close or about the same price point as the most expensive IEMs.
 
With reshelling, I no longer worry about resale of customs. And if I need variety, I am happy to bottom feed with IEMs like the PR1 Pro and others, that are really amazing for their price.
​

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Quote:

Hmmmm? I think its each person's individual choice and preference and how they hear sound. Some points you made about some top tiers I wholehearted agree with (I couldn't keep the TF10s either, although I paid the $100 range). On the other hand, the SM3, e-Q7, FX700, and MD (a little less on the Cooper) have all lived up to the hype for me. Do I wish each one cost a $100 less? Of course I do. And many I have been able to sniff out a more desirable price before purchasing. But of those I paid full price - or close to it - I don't regret it. As a matter of fact I can't think of any IEM in the top tier that I paid a relatively premium price for  and later regretted it. Well, if I think hard enough, I can come up with one,  the IE8. But here's a testament to these IEMs being worth the price: most of the top tier IEMs I've owned and decided to sell for whatever reason I've gotten very close to the original price I paid for it in the sale. 
 
As for the SM3, I personally disagree with your assessment and think it's worth the close to $400 I paid. Would I have preferred to pay $300? Yes (or less). But a somewhat MSRP IEM, such as the FX700, I think it is very close in performance (although different sound sigs) as the SM3. So I don't equate the more expensive IEMs as the end all to the rest of the competition. Indeed,  the $150 Radius DDM sounds way better to me than the Monster Copper or MD. It boils down to the individual ear and what you're seeking sound wise. If something absolutely pleases your senses, and you have the money for it, you don't really care how much it cost as long as it delivers.
 
By the way, I've heard the DBA through a loaner, and while pleasant, it really didn't impress me at all. And I don't think one could argue it's because I'm one who loves bloated bass, because I owned the HF5 and loved it! The DBA has way more bass in it than the HF5.

 

[slaters70]

Didn't mean to generalize, only relay my personal experience. I guess the "smoke and mirrors" mention did cross a line, but I just think that some of the universal prices are getting outrageous, to the point where customs are the only route that makes sense, for me.
 
And I have no doubt that the Shure 500s are a leap above the 300s, but don't be surprised if there are phones out there soon that are equal to the 500s at the price of the 300s, even in your eyes. I mean, I hope that happens, don't you?
 
Quote:

Very cool. I think the greatest thing about head-fi is the help to find what you can be happy with. Think Confucius pointed out the importance of 'learning to be content'.
 
However, not sure if you can generalize like that. At least for me, Shure 500s are well worth the price difference with 300 series

 

[Bennyboy71]

Aren't customs  just universals with blobs of see-through plastic and four figure pricetags stuck on them?  Seems if there's any overinflation going on, its there. 
 
But hey, I wish you all the best on that journey. I'm keen to hear your impressions (get it?) as you take the leap into that acrylic void....
 

 

[slaters70]

Well, having had impressions done twice already (for custom sleeves, not custom phones), I do know that getting the very best audiologist is critical. There is one here where I live who does impressions for musicians, some famous, and I will go to her if and when I make the move. I didn't last time (for the UM56s) and there is a slight issue with my left ear (see below).
 
Even so, when I have the UM56 custom sleeves in my ears with the DBAs or Ety MC5s, there is nothing like it. As noted, my left UM56 is a little loose, so I have to adjust fit now and again, but there is nothing like it really. No fussing with tips, no hassle. Oddly, using the UM56s with the SM3s, W2s or UM3Xs really didn't make be like them any more (though they were the best sounding tips for the SM3s). But with the Etys (which hang straight down) and the DBAs, which are more comfy than over over the ear IEMs I have owned, the difference is fantastic.
 
So no, it's not just about having a blob of plastic in your ears, and I can say that having had some experience with custom-fitting tips.
 
Plus, being as frugal as I am now, with my new mindset, I am thinking more of JH5s or JH7s,which are not four-figure IEMs. I saw a musician review the JH5s and say he actually liked them more than the JH13s, and the JH5s are $399. So they are on my short list.

 

[rawrster]

I think the JH5 was originally going to be priced a couple hundred more than the price now but the UE4 came out at a low price so they went and lowered the price. Don't quote me on that however and I could be wrong on that.
 
In regards to the DBA02 as a very good universal I truly believe that they are very good. I haven't missed the CK10 with the exception of the superior build quality. They definitely were worth the price of admission for me and they do compete with higher price ranges such as my e-Q7 and Coppers. Are they the end of my universal search? I don't know but very possibly since I'm pretty happy with what I have now. Of course I haven't listened to them in a couple weeks but that's another story.
 
However I did go and get myself a pair of remolded customs and even with an improper fit and all they are better than the e-Q7, DBA02 and every other universal I have heard so the JH5 are probably worth the price of admission as well as my pair that I got.

 

[slaters70]

I saw that you mentioned that about the Livewires, and that was part of what got me thinking and led me to make this post. I mean, the JH5s are not much more than universals (and cheaper even with impressions than some universals), so they may be the perfect custom for me. You made my point, I guess. If you get customs that fit, there is no going back to universals from a purely aesthetic/ergonomic POV, but you also get better music too, it seems. I have the DBAs in right now, with the UM56s, and apart from that left ear fit issue, when I adjust them to seal properly, wow.
 
Are you getting your Livewire remolds fixed/adjusted? Did Fisher in Fla do them?

 

[rawrster]

I got them on Tuesday and called them on Wednesday. Since I never had customs they told me to wait until Monday. I'm going to call them on Monday and send it to them. The fit is close but a tad bit off on the tip area. I just have to figure out what the issue is in terms of how to describe it but I don't have doubts they everything will be fine. Also yes Fisher did do them. Although I may be close to being done with universals buying the Livewires might have owned up a new world and my wallet is hiding in a corner running for it's dear life since customs are way more expensive. Does diminishing returns exist even more at the custom level? I only have one but I don;t think something like the JH13 could be 2-3x better than the JH5 but that's speculation from me.
 
I think even though I do have these I still have times when I do need universals but I have a good selection where I don't necessarily need to spend money on the newest top dog universal (xjays whenever that comes out I guess is my prediction will be the next one) The RE262 does interest me but I won't be getting that unless someone buys them and loans them to me

 

[communic]

I considered this conundrum myself not too long ago. I came to the conclusion that customs are not the answer for two reasons. Firstly, while I have not dwelved into the world of customs thus far, I do agree with the poster that said there may be even smaller returns on investment than universals. Secondly, if there is any niggle with sound, losses suffered would be greater than its universal counterparts in the event of getting it sold.
 
I too would agree that universals are overpriced. In many ways you are paying for the niche of the product. Many cheapo fullsized cans sound better than the more expensive universal iems. The performance to cost ratio really does blow but it's a price that has to be paid if you want good audio on-the-go.
 
I was set to buy the SM3's but after koonhua mentioned that it's highs are metallic its become a definite no-go. I am set to buy the DDMs now and venture back into dynamic diaphragm drivers as I find myself not listening to music as much with IEMs as it seems everything I have tried so far still doesn't leave me with that level of satisfaction I get from any one of my headphones or home system. Coupled with the fact that if they don't sound so great I won't be too bothered that 'perfection' isn't attained through £100!

 

[midoo1990]

 
Quote:

 

Anyway, enjoy those universals. My view is that based on observation from some HFers I respect, the custom route is the only way to go, and today's custom makers, JH Audio and the like, are bring some pretty impressive customs close or about the same price point as the most expensive IEMs.
 
 
​

 

i think you should go custom route,like jh13.The only universal that lasted me for a very long time is the ie8,about 10 month.all the others,i sold in a week or 2 from possessions(um3x,ck10,fx500(gave to my father)) .
you cant fault the jh13,there is nothing they do wrong.they are better than my home rig and i am having some thoughts(that i know will regret) to sell my hd650 and go for something in the same class as jh13 like hd800 or lcd2.
 
i actually thought about the jh5 before i go for the 13s but the appreciation thread was discouriging for me because many reported it is bassy and warm so i thought it wont be a big jump from universals.
 
go for the 13s and you will be very happy....just dont think about the cost

 

[Bennyboy71]

SM3 have metallic highs?  Thats news to me.
 
Quote:

I considered this conundrum myself not too long ago. I came to the conclusion that customs are not the answer for two reasons. Firstly, while I have not dwelved into the world of customs thus far, I do agree with the poster that said there may be even smaller returns on investment than universals. Secondly, if there is any niggle with sound, losses suffered would be greater than its universal counterparts in the event of getting it sold.
 
I too would agree that universals are overpriced. In many ways you are paying for the niche of the product. Many cheapo fullsized cans sound better than the more expensive universal iems. The performance to cost ratio really does blow but it's a price that has to be paid if you want good audio on-the-go.
 
I was set to buy the SM3's but after koonhua mentioned that it's highs are metallic its become a definite no-go. I am set to buy the DDMs now and venture back into dynamic diaphragm drivers as I find myself not listening to music as much with IEMs as it seems everything I have tried so far still doesn't leave me with that level of satisfaction I get from any one of my headphones or home system. Coupled with the fact that if they don't sound so great I won't be too bothered that 'perfection' isn't attained through £100!

 

[warp08]

Perfection isn't attained at any cost, partially because it is--like beauty--in the eyes of the beholder.  In terms of universals vs. custom IEMs, normally one doesn't cross over until have tried every top-tier model on the market and found them lacking one way or the other.  No mass-produced product comes anywhere close to a custom designed one, tailored specifically to your needs.  Such is the case with customs.  After spending over $1,000 plus about $150 on various tips, etc., I have given up on universals for good and never looked back.  I've been very happy with the JH13 Pros and the JH16 Pros.  Those of you who are wondering how do they compare to full-sized reference cans such as the HD800s, may want to take a peek at this particular review from Headfonia:  http://www.headfonia.com/?p=5149.

 

[midoo1990]

 
Quote:

I considered this conundrum myself not too long ago. I came to the conclusion that customs are not the answer for two reasons. Firstly, while I have not dwelved into the world of customs thus far, I do agree with the poster that said there may be even smaller returns on investment than universals.
 
I too would agree that universals are overpriced. In many ways you are paying for the niche of the product. Many cheapo fullsized cans sound better than the more expensive universal iems.

universals are overpriced and the difference between a unversal and another is not big to justify spending $300 after $300.
customs are of much better value but i think they are a bit overpriced.
as i said in my previous post,jh13 out of my ipod touch is better than my home rig and my previous headphones/iems.
 
universals wish to compete with mid priced full size headphones but the thought that jh13 is able to surpass them(with a comfortable margin) makes it much more better investment than universals.