Tidal Masters & MQA Thread!

[rkw]

PLEASE TIDAL… I BELIEVE YOU MUST HAVE THIS SOURCE INFO AVAILABLE!

Tidal and other streaming services are only a middleman and don't have this information. They receive music files from record labels and deliver them to customers. When a record label wants to use MQA, they encode it before sending it to Tidal. The provenance of the source is only known by the record label. It is possible to add this information to the metadata of FLAC files but record labels don't do it.

 

[peterinvan]

Tidal and other streaming services are only a middleman and don't have this information. They receive music files from record labels and deliver them to customers. When a record label wants to use MQA, they encode it before sending it to Tidal. The provenance of the source is only known by the record label. It is possible to add this information to the metadata of FLAC files but record labels don't do it.

What are the record labels afraid of disclosing? I don't know how many new Tidal customers would gain if it offered this info and included it on the information for an album.

Tidal is in the middle of a large project to add the hi-res FLAC files to it's database, so it would be an opportune time to add the provenance info.

I believe that if Tidal insisted that the record labels include the provenance of the source, it would have a competitive advantage (at least for a while).

 

[rkw]

I believe that if Tidal insisted that the record labels include the provenance of the source, it would have a competitive advantage (at least for a while).

If Spotify, Apple or Amazon insisted, the record labels might listen. With less than 1% market share, Tidal is not in a position to insist on anything. The record labels are not motivated to do anything unless it increases profits.

 

[gregorio]

During the MQA debate there were rumours that the “master tapes” used for the MQA mix/compression were of a higher quality, maybe less compressed than the ones used for the original 16/44 CDs . I bought into the MQA hype based on this belief. If Tidal (or other services) could publish the provanance of the source of all their tracks, including the new hi-res FLACs this would be very helpful to audiophiles trying to explain the differences they may be hearing.

I’m not sure I understand what you mean.

With popular music genres various amounts of various types of compression is added to virtually all the channels in the mix, plus on some/all of the sub-mixes/stems. When the mix is complete, it’s sent to a mastering engineer where more compression is added (and other processing) with different compressors/limiters. None of the information about compression (or any other applied processing/effect) is noted by any of the studios/engineers involved, so the labels don’t have it.

Also, less compression doesn’t necessarily mean higher quality, it all depends on the playback environment. When driving or travelling by any means, walking or exercising, generally doing pretty much anything else while listening, or when playing the recording on particularly weak speakers (such as those typical on phones, laptops, etc.), then a more heavily compressed recording/master will sound higher quality, as the quieter parts of the song/track won’t be lost in the noise floor of the environment. Only in the relatively unusual situation of a good system in a quiet/isolated listening environment will a less compressed recording/master sound higher quality.

G

 

[NOMOS]

Today was the starting signal for 2.87.0

 

[BobSmith8901]

Today was the starting signal for 2.87.0

Looks like Windows Desktop app also updated. Thanks for the heads-up. This is from the release notes on the new desktop version:

"Version 2023.08.02
Released 8/1/2023
Baby Got (Hi-Res) FLAC
We like HiRes FLAC and we cannot lie. Oh my...HiFi Plus members are in for an absolute treat with this audio quality upgrade. Prepare your ears for a sonic adventure like never before, as you now have access to a jaw-dropping selection of over 6 million songs in HiRes FLAC! It's time to clear your calendar and take time to listen to your favorites in crystal-clear bliss.

New Audio Quality Settings
We've renamed the audio quality levels to make it easier for you to pick based on your hardware and signal strength. Formats available on each level are as follows:

Max – High fidelity lossless audio up to 24-bit, 192 kHz with HiRes FLAC (Free Lossless Audio Codec) and Master Quality Authenticated audio (MQA).
High – Lossless audio with FLAC (16-bit, 44.1 kHz)
Low (up to 320 kbps) – Listen to the music you love using lower data usage with compressed AAC files."

CORRECTION: Just from my initial perusing it looks like MQA is still there in Max but I guess you'll only know it's MQA if your DAC indicates you have an MQA track.

 

[rlw6534]

Looks like Windows Desktop app also updated. Thanks for the heads-up. This is from the release notes on the new desktop version:

"Version 2023.08.02
Released 8/1/2023
Baby Got (Hi-Res) FLAC
We like HiRes FLAC and we cannot lie. Oh my...HiFi Plus members are in for an absolute treat with this audio quality upgrade. Prepare your ears for a sonic adventure like never before, as you now have access to a jaw-dropping selection of over 6 million songs in HiRes FLAC! It's time to clear your calendar and take time to listen to your favorites in crystal-clear bliss.

New Audio Quality Settings
We've renamed the audio quality levels to make it easier for you to pick based on your hardware and signal strength. Formats available on each level are as follows:

Max – High fidelity lossless audio up to 24-bit, 192 kHz with HiRes FLAC (Free Lossless Audio Codec) and Master Quality Authenticated audio (MQA).
High – Lossless audio with FLAC (16-bit, 44.1 kHz)
Low (up to 320 kbps) – Listen to the music you love using lower data usage with compressed AAC files."

CORRECTION: Just from my initial perusing it looks like MQA is still there in Max but I guess you'll only know it's MQA if your DAC indicates you have an MQA track.

I really wish the app would tell you the format and bitrate of the songs that are playing. I haven't figured out a way...

 

[Bret Halford]

I really wish the app would tell you the format and bitrate of the songs that are playing. I haven't figured out a way...

A lot of DACs will tell you what sample rate and format its getting (different colors, or text display etc).

Has anyone actually had a non-MQA DAC report >44 kHz? I've been trying a variety of albums that are available in Qobuz in 24/192 on my ADI-2 and nothing is showing above 44k yet... seems like it may be just a relabel and almost all Max content is still MQA. I'd love to be wrong, I want to check on my DAP too but it isn't updating the app yet.

 

[gimmeheadroom]

A lot of DACs will tell you what sample rate and format its getting (different colors, or text display etc).

Has anyone actually had a non-MQA DAC report >44 kHz? I've been trying a variety of albums that are available in Qobuz in 24/192 on my ADI-2 and nothing is showing above 44k yet... seems like it may be just a relabel and almost all Max content is still MQA. I'd love to be wrong, I want to check on my DAP too but it isn't updating the app yet.

I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean is there anything that has a sample rate greater than 44.1 KHz being streamed from Tidal? Yes, they have some 48 KHz. You are aware you can turn passthrough MQA on or off on the Windows desktop app?

But for your ADI-2 FS you have to install the ASIO drivers or you're locked to whatever your Windows mixer is set at. You can test this by going to sound settings and trying some other sample rate (96, 192 whatever). If that makes your ADI-2 display a rate that matches, it means you're not getting the best sound the RME can give you.

 

[rlw6534]

A lot of DACs will tell you what sample rate and format its getting (different colors, or text display etc).

Has anyone actually had a non-MQA DAC report >44 kHz? I've been trying a variety of albums that are available in Qobuz in 24/192 on my ADI-2 and nothing is showing above 44k yet... seems like it may be just a relabel and almost all Max content is still MQA. I'd love to be wrong, I want to check on my DAP too but it isn't updating the app yet.

I have only seen 44.1 and MQA so far using my Hiby R5 (which displays bitrate in the status bar). 360 Reality Audio does show at 48 kHz which is normal. I am also having issues with track changes causing the music to stop completely, and it can't be restarted by pressing Play. Ultimately it gives a connection error although the wifi is good.

 

[KaiFi]

If you're using Tidal through Roon or Audirvana, does it still show the format?

 

[Bret Halford]

I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean is there anything that has a sample rate greater than 44.1 KHz being streamed from Tidal? Yes, they have some 48 KHz. You are aware you can turn passthrough MQA on or off on the Windows desktop app?

But for your ADI-2 FS you have to install the ASIO drivers or you're locked to whatever your Windows mixer is set at. You can test this by going to sound settings and trying some other sample rate (96, 192 whatever). If that makes your ADI-2 display a rate that matches, it means you're not getting the best sound the RME can give you.

I am well aware on how to listen to HD music on my ADI-2. I do so on Qobuz quite regularly and have for many years already. Chrome OS, unlike Windows, doesn't require any ASIO driver installation, with the only notable limitation being that it doesn't support 88.2 or the even rarer 176k.

Unlike Qobuz, however, which passes on HD PCM to the DAC (up to 192k), Tidal 'Max' doesn't produce anything more than 44kHz, which is the behavior for MQA (no MQA support in Chrome so it goes with SD, but I don't particularly care). When pressed, Tidal support have noted that they are "transitioning" their library away from MQA, so it makes sense that most if not all current Max content is just MQA. At least until someone actually verifies pulling a PCM >44k from 2 channel music... for the moment, this seems like quite a cynical move from Tidal, just changing the label and even further obfuscating the actual file type and format (complete wrong direction!).

 

[rlw6534]

I have only seen 44.1 and MQA so far using my Hiby R5 (which displays bitrate in the status bar). 360 Reality Audio does show at 48 kHz which is normal. I am also having issues with track changes causing the music to stop completely, and it can't be restarted by pressing Play. Ultimately it gives a connection error although the wifi is good.

Update. I tried my DX170 and I did find a few 48 and 96 KHz non-MQA tracks (these were the ones that my R5 wouldn't play, BTW). I am using Tidal Beta 2.87, most hi-res tracks seem to still be MQA...

i.e.

Fast Car - Luke Combs - 48 KHz
fukumean - Gunna - 96 KHz

 

[Bret Halford]

Update. I tried my DX170 and I did find a few 48 and 96 KHz non-MQA tracks (these were the ones that my R5 wouldn't play, BTW). I am using Tidal Beta 2.87

That is good news! Would you be able to pass on a few albums I could test on my side?

 

[rlw6534]

That is good news! Would you be able to pass on a few albums I could test on my side?

Here are a couple of 24/96 albums:

https://tidal.com/browse/album/91904802
https://tidal.com/browse/album/641083

I can't find an index or any way to search, so it's just random clicking...