Thoughts on a bunch of DACs (and why delta-sigma kinda sucks, just to get you to think about stuff)

[lukeap69]

Perhaps they will grow more for being honest and direct...

 

[HemiSam]

I appreciate the honesty and humor. No schitt here until the yggy so I'm no fanboy.

Some people need to take a breath and relax. Get laid.....




HS

 

[skeptic]

Perhaps, but it is hard to imagine that very many people will be running out to buy their mid-range products in the near future given both the rhetoric about SD designs and the inevitable uptick in availability on the used market as more yggy's are released into the wild.  The assurances that upgrades will ultimately be made available to bifrost and gungnir owners are certainly a significant selling point.  Maybe the potential upgrades are the real projected future money maker for these customers?  Best guess here is that Schiit is playing the long game and knowingly taking a hit on its mid priced product sales in the short term to really distinguish itself from the bulk of the consumer dac market.  
 
Whether or not this strategy works - the yggy really is awesome (totally infatuated with mine), and hopefully the trickle down will be as well for those who wait it out.  In the meanwhile though, I could easily see the anti-SD sentiment spawning competition - for example a start up building completed soekris dacs.  Misterrogers already has an amazing top shelf build, using 3 different absolute no compromise psu's for the board, usb and digital isolators for $1k.  I've been tempted to buy it myself even though I have no need for it.  If he, or someone else, started cranking these out in pretty metal chassis, with cheaper psu's that allow for higher profits, my guess is that purrin and schiit have just created a market for them.

 

[wahsmoh]

   
I've noticed this with my set-up too, particularly since I've got my lcd2f.
 
When there are just a few instruments/vocals spaced around, the accuracy is pin-point and exceptionally well positioned; I can place everything in a precise position, in and around my head; it's very holographic.
But when the track starts to get busy; when the main accompaniment kicks in, the overall sound turns into something that's more like a 'wash' of noise; all the separation just disappears.
 
I'm hoping that the main cause of this is my (current) under-powered amp, and that purchasing a Gustard H10 will be the fix. Fingers crossed; if it's my dac, then I'm gonna be doing a whole lot of head scratching. 

I think an amp will be an incremental improvement, mostly in the dynamics/slam factor; less likely though to influence soundstage and imaging capabilities. It might help you avoid the "smearing" when the mids and bass and highs all collide together.
 
I know that my Theta is a passive preamp for my Asgard 2 and I have to be more careful with the volume dial in comparison to the Bifrost. This passive preamp boost is a 1-2'oclock difference on my amp dial and helps the Asgard essentially "cheat." The legendary burrito filter is the real deal though. Seems like the 90's speaker crowd sort of overlooked the lower model Theta's and at the turn of the century the D-S stable of DACs was unleashed, leaving the Thetas to float around in the used market. I'm hoping there will be space at the San Diego mini-meet for me to demonstrate some gear. Otherwise I'll be touring the facilities
 
On a side note, I think everyone who has spent a considerable(or short) amount of time listening to an R2R has had an "Aha moment" where you aren't expecting to be able to turn up the volume so loud and preparing to wince when you notice there isn't that uncharacteristic treble hash.. it just gets louder and doesn't turn sibilant as fast on good recordings

 

[purrin]

  let's just calm down ,we want to make everything clear so what did you mean that ranking system doesn't matter if so I can agree with that .

 
Rankings are my own based on my own preferences. Your rankings may be different. I believe I said something to that effect in the first post. Maybe I didn't.
 

@purrin

Linear phase is less glary than Minimum Phase??? Oh men. You lost credibility on me there, sorry. You just confirmed my theory.

And I'm not talking about Minimum Phase digital filter, which still has post-ringing as you said, and which traded pre-ringing for timing phase distortion. Let us take my fave the Audiolab--it has Optimal Transient filters (3 of them) that has no pre and post-ringing at all. The most analogue-sounding digital filters I've heard. No glare at all, with very present and defined bass to sub-bass, especially on 3-way speakers.

I'm actually amazed that you didn't even account for what digital filters are used by each of the D-S and the like that you reviewed.

All DACs that sound the same--glary? It's because they're listening to the same digital filter. Period. All other factors mentioned here would be TOTALLY naught if you use the Standard/Linear Phase digital filter because of both ore and post-ringing.

If I'm to buy the Yggy or any other with R2R archi, I'll be buying the digital filter or no -digital filter or NOS or passive filter used, not the expensive R2R DAC chip.

 
I have heard DACs with minimum phase and linear phase filters. Some D-S DACs I have owned or borrowed for extended periods offered several filters. PWD2, Gamma2, Vega, LH, etc. (too many to recall.) In these cases, I've almost always preferred the linear phase filter. Smoother to my ears; however I still wouldn't say analog sounding or particularly smooth compared to R2R. The other ninjas in the evaluations preferred other filters. I'd say the filters are more a matter of "different" than better or analog.
 
Using your logic, the smoother "analog" sounding R2R DACs of yesteryear and Yggy would sound very digital because they have linear filter characteristics with both pre and post ringing. BTW, if you didn't know, most of the R2R DACs of yesterday also used cheap pre-canned filters. 
 
Finally, the Audiolab DAC Optimal Transient filters do have pre and post ringing. So there goes your theory. I'd be happy to provide measurements for you if you don't believe me. Don't get bamboozled by their marketing literature. It's impossible to not have any kind of ringing with filters.
 
Sorry to say it, but you don't know what you are talking about.

 

[purrin]

 

   they are a lot indeed !
 
Seriously ... the title is very misleading. Very superficial. 
I challenge everyone to demonstrate that Berkeley Audio Reference dac and Bricasti M1, to name two, suck. And they use delta-sigma dac chip.
I listened to the second and it was amazing.  
I could live with both. 
Regards,  gino 

 
I have not heard the Bezerkly Audio Reference. I have heard Bricasti M1 with one of my amps (currently on loan with a friend), my music, and my headphones. The Bricasti M1 is a fantastic DAC. It is my favorite D-S DAC out-of-the-box. However, compared to the Yggy or even the Gen V the Bricasti sucks.

See my comments on the M1: http://www.head-fi.org/t/693798/thoughts-on-a-bunch-of-dacs-and-why-delta-sigma-sucks/1275#post_10855968
 
It's all relative.

 

[Sonic Defender]

You know what they say, you mess with the bull, you get the horns.

 

[Sonic Defender]

   
I have not heard the Bezerkly Audio Reference. I have heard Bricasti M1 with one of my amps (currently on loan with a friend), my music, and my headphones. The Bricasti M1 is a fantastic DAC. It is my favorite D-S DAC out-of-the-box. However, compared to the Yggy or even the Gen V the Bricasti sucks.
 
It's all relative.

 If you keep this up purrin I'm going to be out a bunch of money! I have pretty much made up my mind that in 2016 I'll get a Yggy. Going to spend a year enjoying the M51, but my goal since hearing about the R2R implementation that Yggy was going to bring was to end up with the Yggy. The next few months will be great as more and more impressions come in.

 

[purrin]

  This is unacceptable will if I said hd600 better than stax 009 !! no way, many headfiers won't believe me, what kind of joke is this ? there is huge margin between them, to be fair you should put comparison Yggy vs Vega .

 
I prefer the HD600 over the 009.
 
What I am getting at? You have to have conviction and a spine (and the intelligence to articulate your rationale.) This is why I love Mike Moffat.
 
Just be glad that Mike is brutally honest about what's he's about. You don't have to agree with him, but I'd rather have him wear that "D-S, when music doesn't matter" shirt than say "everything's good, you're good, i'm good, and lets all sing kumbayah", or even worse, write a Schiit 5 page white paper on why all the Schiit DACs, including the delta-sigma stuffs are so awesome.
 
 

 

[JohnnyCanuck]

kumbaya?

 

[7ryder]

oh lord...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3MiD_U4CHQ

 

[7ryder]

   
Rankings are my own based on my own preferences. Your rankings may be different. I believe I said something to that effect in the first post. Maybe I didn't.
 
 
I have heard DACs with minimum phase and linear phase filters. Some D-S DACs I have owned or borrowed for extended periods offered several filters. PWD2, Gamma2, Vega, LH, etc. (too many to recall.) In these cases, I've almost always preferred the linear phase filter. Smoother to my ears; however I still wouldn't say analog sounding or particularly smooth compared to R2R. The other ninjas in the evaluations preferred other filters. I'd say the filters are more a matter of "different" than better or analog.
 
Using your logic, the smoother "analog" sounding R2R DACs of yesteryear and Yggy would sound very digital because they have linear filter characteristics with both pre and post ringing. BTW, if you didn't know, most of the R2R DACs of yesterday also used cheap pre-canned filters. 
 
Finally, the Audiolab DAC Optimal Transient filters do have pre and post ringing. So there goes your theory. I'd be happy to provide measurements for you if you don't believe me. Don't get bamboozled by their marketing literature. It's impossible to not have any kind of ringing with filters.
 
Sorry to say it, but you don't know what you are talking about.

this is timely
 
http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2015/04/internet-blind-test-linear-vs-minimum.html

 

[agooh]

Ok I see Mike Moffat before on youtube !! but why you are talking about him, I respect him as human before he  works with shiit Audio, now I respect him more for doing very good dac with reasonable price ,I didn't know him personally but why I have to agree or disagree with him !! what shirt R u talkin about !!
Can we get real information here. 
please don't hype dac while still under production. this won't give the company a positive picture . and btw who are you !! I mean are you working with schiit Audio or loyal guard  ...or you work here as misleading person . I will like to buy good product depends on others opinions not yours alone ..

 

[theblueprint]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Theta-Pro-Gen-5-DAC-digital-audio-converter-excellent-condition-/191571715283?nma=true&si=QE6XorYamh0tT8svueWl0TYgPhQ%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
 
Okay, so who bought a Theta GenV for $1750? 

 

[purrin]

  what shirt R u talkin about !!
Can we get real information here. 

 
Moffat wore a shirt to CanJam Los Angeles. The shirt had delta-sigma symbol with "when music doesn't matter". He wore this shirt openly during a presentation and someone in the audience asked about it. 
 

 
please don't hype dac while still under (before) production. this won't give the company a positive picture . 

 
Sorry, but this is not your decision to make. Schiit knew about this thread before they let me know about the Yggy. Schiit came to one of my mini-meets and brought the DAC. I asked for permission to talk about it.
 
If you feel this does not give the company a positive picture, do not buy the DAC. I have refused to buy products of companies that I did not like, even though their products were good.
 

 
I mean are you working with schiit Audio or loyal guard  ...or you work here as misleading person .

 
I work for a company that competes somewhat against Schiit, particularly for headphone amps in the middle to high range from $800 and up. If you feel I am a misleading person, do not read what I have to say and unsubscribe to this thread.
 

 
I will like to buy good product depends on others opinions not yours alone ..

 
I don't care how you buy your products. I really don't.
 
There are two other threads of opinions on Yggy on HF. You can easily go there.