Thoughts on a bunch of DACs (and why delta-sigma kinda sucks, just to get you to think about stuff)

[shabta]

Schiit EU doesnt have it yet but judging by the price of the Rag it would be more than the usually 'translated' price of €2299. Not exactly cheap.

Well the Rag is roughly the dollar price converted to EUR plus 20% VAT (plus about 40 eur). So it doesn't seem really very out of line price-wise...

 

[warrior1975]

Agreed. Wish there was more info on it. I almost bought it the other day, impulse purchase. I definitely need a couple of dacs as I'm still learning about them... I'll probably purchase a cheaper, moderate, and a Yggy priced dac in the next couple of months.

 

[Stillhart]

Is it too much to ask, DAC-19 vs NFB-28?

 
That's not really a fair comparison.  I'm not going to sit here and tell you D-S sucks, etc etc.  But I will tell you this:  now that I have 3 R2R DAC's, I really don't like listening to the NFB-28's DAC anymore.  The Sabre has a brighter sound with a more forward treble, which also make it feel more airy.  But it's an artificial sound and once you hear it, you can't unhear it.  
 
It's easiest to hear in something like the shimmer after a splash cymbal hit.  Instead of a dynamic shimmering sound, it sounds like digital white noise.  Think of it like those old "Speak n Spell" toys from the 80s/90s trying to pronounce the "sh" sound.  It's just digital white noise because that's the closest it can get.  It's close enough for you to understand the intention, but it doesn't actually SOUND like someone saying "sh".  Cymbals and such on the Sabre sound like that to me now.
 
This is one of those things that had to be spoiled for me, though.  Had I never heard R2R, I probably would never have noticed.  Because of that, I'd happily continue recommending the NFB-28 to anyone looking for a really solid DAC in the price range.  I still think it's a very smooth implementation for a Sabre.
 
Side note:  Because I actually don't like listening to the Sabre anymore, I am having a hard time listening long enough to come up with more detailed impressions of the sound differences.  But as I'll be writing up a full review of the DAC-19, I'll do my best to power through it at some point.  For now, tho, I'm just enjoying the AGD, which I've had for less than a full day. 

 

[wmedrz]

Every Audio GD product I have ever owned, including the old DAC19, has benefited from being left on 24/7. Even the hot running amps.

I second this. The change is a pretty big one once they've been on for a few hours. I typically turn them on in the morning, listen to 1-3 songs, go away for a few hours, and upon return the sound is improved, smoother and finer. 
 
The problem is the M9 gets so hot it's unbearable on hot days. 
 
I still haven't figured if the improved sound is due to M7 warm up or M9 warm up, or both.

 

[evillamer]

Is it too much to ask, DAC-19 vs NFB-28?

That's not really a fair comparison.  I'm not going to sit here and tell you D-S sucks, etc etc.  But I will tell you this:  now that I have 3 R2R DAC's, I really don't like listening to the NFB-28's DAC anymore.  The Sabre has a brighter sound with a more forward treble, which also make it feel more airy.  But it's an artificial sound and once you hear it, you can't unhear it.  

It's easiest to hear in something like the shimmer after a splash cymbal hit.  Instead of a dynamic shimmering sound, it sounds like digital white noise.  Think of it like those old "Speak n Spell" toys from the 80s/90s trying to pronounce the "sh" sound.  It's just digital white noise because that's the closest it can get.  It's close enough for you to understand the intention, but it doesn't actually SOUND like someone saying "sh".  Cymbals and such on the Sabre sound like that to me now.

This is one of those things that had to be spoiled for me, though.  Had I never heard R2R, I probably would never have noticed.  Because of that, I'd happily continue recommending the NFB-28 to anyone looking for a really solid DAC in the price range.  I still think it's a very smooth implementation for a Sabre.

Side note:  Because I actually don't like listening to the Sabre anymore, I am having a hard time listening long enough to come up with more detailed impressions of the sound differences.  But as I'll be writing up a full review of the DAC-19, I'll do my best to power through it at some point.  For now, tho, I'm just enjoying the AGD, which I've had for less than a full day. 

I believe you are experiencing what purrin/messiah termed as the infamous SABRE GLARE.

 

[coli]

  I second this. The change is a pretty big one once they've been on for a few hours. I typically turn them on in the morning, listen to 1-3 songs, go away for a few hours, and upon return the sound is improved, smoother and finer. 
 
The problem is the M9 gets so hot it's unbearable on hot days. 
 
I still haven't figured if the improved sound is due to M7 warm up or M9 warm up, or both.

Or it's just the daily power quality fluctuation pattern.

 

[lukeap69]

   
That's not really a fair comparison.  I'm not going to sit here and tell you D-S sucks, etc etc.  But I will tell you this:  now that I have 3 R2R DAC's, I really don't like listening to the NFB-28's DAC anymore.  The Sabre has a brighter sound with a more forward treble, which also make it feel more airy.  But it's an artificial sound and once you hear it, you can't unhear it.  
 
It's easiest to hear in something like the shimmer after a splash cymbal hit.  Instead of a dynamic shimmering sound, it sounds like digital white noise.  Think of it like those old "Speak n Spell" toys from the 80s/90s trying to pronounce the "sh" sound.  It's just digital white noise because that's the closest it can get.  It's close enough for you to understand the intention, but it doesn't actually SOUND like someone saying "sh".  Cymbals and such on the Sabre sound like that to me now.
 
This is one of those things that had to be spoiled for me, though.  Had I never heard R2R, I probably would never have noticed.  Because of that, I'd happily continue recommending the NFB-28 to anyone looking for a really solid DAC in the price range.  I still think it's a very smooth implementation for a Sabre.
 
Side note:  Because I actually don't like listening to the Sabre anymore, I am having a hard time listening long enough to come up with more detailed impressions of the sound differences.  But as I'll be writing up a full review of the DAC-19, I'll do my best to power through it at some point.  For now, tho, I'm just enjoying the AGD, which I've had for less than a full day. 

Thanks for not telling me that D-S sucks and that you don't like listening to sabre DACs anymore. 

You just made me more leaning to an R2R DAC as my next piece of schiit! Looking forward to reading your review of DAC-19!
Cheers

 

[prot]

I believe you are experiencing what purrin/messiah termed as the infamous SABRE GLARE.

Not so sure about the 'infamous' part. An R2R or analog fan may surely call sabre aggresive, shrill, bright, etc. But similarly, a sabre fan may call the other camp polite, warm, slow, etc. A jazz/classic fan may swear on r2r but a techno/metal fan may just hate it. And also, since I have a sabre with tube output I can claim with a pretty straight face that mine is a best-of-both-worlds device.

Guess the only way to (somewhat) settle this would be to record an acoustic instrument (say guitar) and compare the sabre and the r2r with the live sound. Thought about that experiment but I dont have access to a good ADC & mike. Maybe some studio guy(s) can do it.

 

[wmedrz]

  Or it's just the daily power quality fluctuation pattern.

I knew I should have gone with that power conditioner!

 

[coli]

  I knew I should have gone with that power conditioner!

Have you ever noticed that things sound better at night?

 

[prot]

Have you ever noticed that things sound better at night?

I wondered about that stuff a few times. Not only late at night but also during the day .. pretty much outside of the busy hours when everyone turns their TVs & co on. Could've been in my head or a pretty real effect cause the power in my area is not stellar.

I just put the whole hifi setup behind a regulated iso transformer that provides stable 230V and it's all good ... at least I stopped worrying

 

[Stillhart]

Not so sure about the 'infamous' part. An R2R or analog fan may surely call sabre aggresive, shrill, bright, etc. But similarly, a sabre fan may call the other camp polite, warm, slow, etc. A jazz/classic fan may swear on r2r but a techno/metal fan may just hate it. And also, since I have a sabre with tube output I can claim with a pretty straight face that mine is a best-of-both-worlds device.

Guess the only way to (somewhat) settle this would be to record an acoustic instrument (say guitar) and compare the sabre and the r2r with the live sound. Thought about that experiment but I dont have access to a good ADC & mike. Maybe some studio guy(s) can do it.

 
While I agree that some people prefer bright to warm, etc, I don't think that's what I'm talking about here.  I'm talking about realistic reproduction of the sound.  Yes, I agree that the R2R is a bit laid back in the treble compared to the Sabre.  But I'd rather have it be laid back but actually sound like what it's supposed to sound like.  And it doesn't take any wonky kind of experiment... like I said, you listen to the two back to back and you go, "ohh! weird!  how did I not notice that before?".  
 
I hypothesize that there's a certain amount of conditioning that's happened over the years.  Our brains are just used to interpreting this noise as this sound and do it automatically.  It's not until you're presented with the actual sound that you realize what's been happening.
 
Anyways, my humble thoughts on the matter.  I'm curious if other folks have had a similar experience.

 

[prot]

While I agree that some people prefer bright to warm, etc, I don't think that's what I'm talking about here.  I'm talking about realistic reproduction of the sound.  Yes, I agree that the R2R is a bit laid back in the treble compared to the Sabre.  But I'd rather have it be laid back but actually sound like what it's supposed to sound like.  And it doesn't take any wonky kind of experiment... like I said, you listen to the two back to back and you go, "ohh! weird!  how did I not notice that before?".  

I hypothesize that there's a certain amount of conditioning that's happened over the years.  Our brains are just used to interpreting this noise as this sound and do it automatically.  It's not until you're presented with the actual sound that you realize what's been happening.

Anyways, my humble thoughts on the matter.  I'm curious if other folks have had a similar experience.

I think your interpretation is actually quite similar. If we take prefs aside, the only real Q is which one sounds more natural ... closer to the acoustic, non-amplified sound. Is the sabre too aggresive (think a pic with exagerated contrast) or is the r2r too tame (same pic with a pleasing blur filter)!?

Only way I know to figure that out is a 3way compare: sabre, r2r and the actual, natural sound. Maybe you can skip on that natural sound ... sounds like rain and applause are well known as complex and difficult for audio gear... and we have a pretty good idea/memory of those sounds. IIUC, you can do that comparison. Aha's Crying In The Rain starts with a good rain sequence, how about trying that one !? Or some audiophile live jazz with lots of applause like Benny Goodman Orchestra (live in copenhagen IIRC)

Just checked and J.M.Jarre Equinoxe8 seems to have an even better rain sequence. At least the version from the Aero compilation.

 

[Stillhart]

I think your interpretation is actually quite similar. If we take prefs aside, the only real Q is which one sounds more natural ... closer to the acoustic, non-amplified sound. Is the sabre too aggresive (think a pic with exagerated contrast) or is the r2r too tame (same pic with a pleasing blur filter)!?

Only way I know to figure that out is a 3way compare: sabre, r2r and the actual, natural sound. Maybe you can skip on that natural sound ... sounds like rain and applause are well known as complex and difficult for audio gear... and we have a pretty good idea/memory of those sounds. IIUC, you can do that comparison. Aha's Crying In The Rain starts with a good rain sequence, how about trying that one !? Or some audiophile live jazz with lots of applause like Benny Goodman Orchestra (live in copenhagen IIRC)

Just checked and J.M.Jarre Equinoxe8 seems to have an even better rain sequence. At least the version from the Aero compilation.

 
Well I'm a drummer (or I was once upon a time) so cymbals are very easy for me.  It didn't occur to me that they might not be as obvious to others.  But yeah, I can try to find some stuff to test other things.  I don't suppose there will be any difference (digital treble is digital treble) but I'm willing to give it a shot.  
 
Later when I get home tho...

 

[prot]

Well I'm a drummer (or I was once upon a time) so cymbals are very easy for me.  It didn't occur to me that they might not be as obvious to others.  But yeah, I can try to find some stuff to test other things.  I don't suppose there will be any difference (digital treble is digital treble) but I'm willing to give it a shot.  

Later when I get home tho...

No hurry, would be great if you do such a test anytime. That BennyGoodmann should pass very well to you ... or Jazz at the Pawnshop, another very clean & clear live recording with lots of natural sounds.

As about the digital glare my Minimax DS surely has some when compared to analog... but it also has much stronger bass. And as much as I enjoy my turntable, sometimes I find it boring and crave for some digital 'action'
The iggy action may be as good as they say ... but it'll have to be really special to make me retire the minimax. It has totally exceeded my expectations in terms of both SQ and modding/tuberolling fun.