These HD600's are terrible, and so are ALL headphones! I give up!!
May 25, 2009 at 7:31 PM Post #256 of 325
Hmm BTX you say you dont judge anyone yet you say that Canjam is basically a penis measuring contest. And that we are all ignorant and should listen to you because you have been obsessed with music since you were 2.
You say that all headphones are ****, so all the people that reviewed headphones are either totally unexperienced with audio reproduction or a re lying about what the headphones are like.
And to top all of this up even though you start you thread by saying all headphones are ****, you later admit having tested only a few headphones that are considered as the best you can get.
That's like saying you dont like movies after watching kill bill even though you're scared of blood.
 
May 25, 2009 at 7:35 PM Post #258 of 325
I still don't see why this thread hasn't been locked. There is no real use to even continue posting in this thread.

Thus, anyone who posts below me just loves trolls or wants to up his post count.
smily_headphones1.gif
 
May 25, 2009 at 7:57 PM Post #259 of 325
I want to up my post count.
icon10.gif


I am relatively new to this forum and pardon me for being a non-native speaker. But what he posted made me want to defend this hobby.

It came to me that there must be a reason for the peaks. If the perfect audio production is a perfect flat response, don’t tell me that after close to a century, we still don’t have the technology to manufacture a headphone that produces flat (or close to flat) frequency response. This just doesn’t make any sense. What makes even less sense to me is how this guy can be right while all these headphone manufactures are producing “wrong” headphones for more than decades, with top audio production engineers specialized in making headphones?

Then I remembered the human hearing curve itself isn’t flat either. The sound production source must compliment the human hearing curve in order to give a “flat perception”. My argument is: if the headphone frequency response itself is perfectly flat, then the perceived sound is not flat due to human hearing. Assuming that this argument is true and that everyone has a unique hearing curve, then theoretically the perfect headphone can be made only after measuring a person’s hearing curve and then make a headphone with the frequency response compliment to that hearing curve. This is almost impossible in practice but fortunately most people share similar hearing curves so headphone manufactures only need to make a few “generalized bumps” in headphones, with varying ability to control the bumps.

Etymotic Research, Inc. - ER-4 - Technical Specifications
Assuming Etymotic is right, now take a look at the target curve, is it flat or is it bumpy?

dB: What is a decibel?
Pay special attention to the dBC and dbA part.

However, it could be the case that I am the uninformed one and HD 600 is indeed very inaccurate even if you consider the target curves. I therefore checked the following:
http://personal.cityu.edu.hk/~bsapplec/frequenc.htm

I took the image of the hearing response curve and flipped it vertically to get the compliment.

tsplevel01h.jpg


Now compare this flipped curve to some of the bumpy curve of headphones:

graphCompare.php


Notice how they appear similar in their general form.

Flat? No. Bumpy? Yes.

Conclusion: it is exactly these bumpy curves that make headphones accurate. I wish I am wrong about this, because otherwise it's much easier to make a accurate-sounding headphone.
 
May 25, 2009 at 8:04 PM Post #260 of 325
Quote:

Originally Posted by SiRuI /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I want to up my post count.
icon10.gif


I am relatively new to this forum and pardon me for being a non-native speaker. But what he posted made me want to defend this hobby.

It came to me that there must be a reason for the peaks. If the perfect audio production is a perfect flat response, don’t tell me that after close to a century, we still don’t have the technology to manufacture a headphone that produces flat (or close to flat) frequency response. This just doesn’t make any sense. What makes even less sense to me is how this guy can be right while all these headphone manufactures are producing “wrong” headphones for more than decades, with top audio production engineers specialized in making headphones?

Then I remembered the human hearing curve itself isn’t flat either. The sound production source must compliment the human hearing curve in order to give a “flat perception”. My argument is: if the headphone frequency response itself is perfectly flat, then the perceived sound is not flat due to human hearing. Assuming that this argument is true and that everyone has a unique hearing curve, then theoretically the perfect headphone can be made only after measuring a person’s hearing curve and then make a headphone with the frequency response compliment to that hearing curve. This is almost impossible in practice but fortunately most people share similar hearing curves so headphone manufactures only need to make a few “generalized bumps” in headphones, with varying ability to control the bumps.

Etymotic Research, Inc. - ER-4 - Technical Specifications
Assuming Etymotic is right, now take a look at the target curve, is it flat or is it bumpy?

dB: What is a decibel?
Pay special attention to the dBC and dbA part.

However, it could be the case that I am the uninformed one and HD 600 is indeed very inaccurate even if you consider the target curves. I therefore checked the following:
http://personal.cityu.edu.hk/~bsapplec/frequenc.htm

I took the image of the hearing response curve and flipped it vertically to get the compliment.

tsplevel01h.jpg


Now compare this flipped curve to some of the bumpy curve of headphones:

graphCompare.php


Notice how they appear similar in their general form.
Flat? No. Bumpy? Yes.



Our ears are more sensitive at 4,000Hz and the headphones all dip there, and our ears are less sensitive at 10,000Hz vs 4,000, so the headphones have a peak there. And at 100-200Hz our ears are about as sensitive as they are at 10,000Hz, so there is a bump there too. Interesting. The only thing missing is a bass peak that continues climbing as we approach 20Hz.
 
May 25, 2009 at 8:11 PM Post #261 of 325
Quote:

Originally Posted by BHTX /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I just received a pair of HD600's the other day, and I'm extremely disappointed, to say the least. I've also realized that there's no such thing as a headphone that's anywhere near accurate. These HD600's are no exception. I bought them as a result of YEARS of browsing the net (mainly this forum). I just knew they'd be the headphone for me. However, their frequency response is so terrible I find them tough to listen to, sometimes unbearable. They're beyond EQ'ing (even with Electri-Q VST plugin, which I had to use for years to make my worn out HD497's the least bit tolerable) because the response is so peaky in so many areas. By the time you've removed the most troublesome areas, there's nothing left. Upon using a combination of pink noise and a software based sinewave generator, I've observed the following: a broadband peak centered around 3.8 KHz (quickly begins rising at 2.5 KHz), a peak centered around 5.2 KHz, a peak at 6 KHz, another at 7 KHz, rising response at 10 KHz, and a huge peak at 12 KHz, along with much of the remaining highs being too much, until it very quickly drops off very steeply to almost nothing at 15 KHz. On top of the usual upper-midrange and treble mess, there's also a broadband increase in response somewhere around 1-1.5 KHz, maybe 500 Hz, 100 Hz (which I find particularly bothersome, and it also seems to be very common among full-size headphones. I think this is the result of the headphone driver's Fs [free-air resonant frequency, or the resonant freq of the headphone as a whole if it's a closed headphone]).. it's somewhat difficult to tell because the entire midbass is boosted about 4-5 dB (which also seems to be the case with almost ALL headphones). Below this, the lower frequencies quickly become less and less until they steeply fall off below 30 Hz. All of these things I've mentioned are only the most problematic areas, the entire response is a complete mess. It's extremely difficult to even pinpoint them because there's too many of them too close together.

I also want to make it clear once again that ALL headphones are like this, just in different areas. In fact, most seem to be even more bothersome than the HD600's. Like I said, it seems as though there's no such thing as a decent headphone. All the music you're hearing from your 'cans' is simply a mixture of so many peaks and dips that it often becomes unnoticable to the vast majority of consumers. However, I notice every bit of it, with every note that comes through these headphones, or any pair. My old HD497's were like this (highs were untolerable and most noticeable), and the same goes with AKG K701's, K601's, Beyerdynamic DT770's (disgusting!.. bass was unbearable), some older Koss, etc etc.. eveything I've ever tried. Therefore, I think it'd be very reasonable to assume that there's no such thing as a headphone with decent accuracy. They're ALL extremely "colored".

I realize that most of this forum will probably be tempted to flame me and tell me I'm crazy or that I don't know what I'm talking about. However, I'll just go ahead and say that I've been into loudspeaker design for decades, and an audio fanatic since before I was old enough to walk. Audio reproduction is an obsession I've always had, ever since I can remember (2 years old?). I've owned much more than my fair share of audio equipment, designed several pairs of loudspeakers, built a couple of amplifiers, spent tens of thousands of dollars over the years, etc. I know what I'm doing, and what I've said is true. I also think this is very valuable information, and I can only wish it would have been explained to me long ago, as it obviously would have saved me a lot of money and trouble. This headphone thing is a bit of a joke. You've all fallen for it, and so did I. The only difference is that I recognized it immediately, and you don't notice it like I do. When I first came across this forum, the first thing I noticed was that most people here aren't very knowledgeable about audio reproduction in general (even all the regulars who own dozens of pairs of headphones). All I can say is.. instead of being so quick to say I'm wrong about anything I've said here, you should all be VERY glad that you're all so unaware, and that your headphones don't bother you like they bother me.

I might have a go at IEM's, but I'm not holding my breath. It's my only hope though. And no, it's not my equipment, lol. While there are noticeable differences between DAC's and amplification, it's not huge, although differences do seem to be more apparent with headphones than loudspeakers. Also, output impedance seems to vary quite a bit between headphone amplifiers. But no, equipment isn't my problem. And if you've been tempted to say that it is, you've obviously only fallen victim to that BS as well..

Enjoy yourselves. I give up.



This post is coming from a Head-Fi member with 9,500 posts.


You need a life.
 
May 25, 2009 at 8:13 PM Post #262 of 325
Quote:

Originally Posted by kukrisna /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I don't find myself in the situation. It's all about the music first, which is why I can deal with the radio in the car, or cruddy speakers in my office if there's something I want to listen to, and I'm away from my gear. The equipment, IMHO, enhances the enjoyment and pleasure from the music, but I would never say that fidelity surpasses the importance or excitement of the music.

Example: It'd be like saying I could never go to a student recital, or a community orchestra, because their level of playing just isn't as best as seeing Vienna Phil at Musikverein in the best possible seat, or RCO at Concertgebouw conducted only by Haitink.



Of course I totally get your point. I'm not saying I can't enjoy music if it's low fi, that would be ridiculous, hell I love my ipod buds and can enjoy music anywhere.
But I do love audio equipment as well, always have - so when there's critical listening to be done, it's equipment listening time!
And then there's the purely music times, totally absorbed.

Best of both worlds, everyone's different.
 
May 25, 2009 at 8:34 PM Post #263 of 325
Quote:

Originally Posted by SiRuI /img/forum/go_quote.gif
My argument is: if the headphone frequency response itself is perfectly flat, then the perceived sound is not flat due to human hearing.
...
most people share similar hearing curves so headphone manufactures only need to make a few “generalized bumps” in headphones, with varying ability to control the bumps.




Don't know about the op but in my case the sinegen was tested directly out of my various pair of headphones, so assuming if I have a "standard" human hearing curve, it would mean that the responses I hear should be uniformly distributed, and no normalization should be necessary. However, I noticed tremendous peak gains in the 10-13 kHz spectrum, so it can be concluded that my hearing in that region is especially sensitive (especially considering the dip in HP frequency response); there are more peaks but that region is the one that sticks out the most, always having 10+db gain. Using IEMs and canal phones though I noticed no such gains, but speakers have similar effects to full sized headphones for me, so I guess my ear canal have an unique way of not amplifying or reducing sound rather uniformly.

I asked OP whether it is possible due to individual cases of how distance affects our hearing differently than most people (I see no other explanation especially in my scenario), but he simply sidestepped the question by telling me that these things are well documented and that I should do my own research. Well, I'm not the one having trouble with how headphones sound, so together with his negativity, I kind of figured that he is just in it for the trolling; I may be using amateur testing methods and have almost zero experience in audio equipments, but I do know how to apply scientific method and form feasible hypothesis. However, it seems like that he was truly in a bad fit and is now having logical and civil discussions.

I am surprised that the headphone frequency does not curve up more as it approaches double digits frequency region. Anything below roughly 150 Hz is on such low I have to turn up the volume progressively to hear them clearer. This can of course be attributed to the audio chain, but I don't think the same can be said for the 10+db gain on all headphones and speakers I've heard ~11kHz
 
May 25, 2009 at 9:05 PM Post #264 of 325
No doubt, he is a troll. When we tried to fire him questions, he just told us to believe what he said or ignore some questions that leads him to answer things specifically.
 
May 25, 2009 at 9:12 PM Post #266 of 325
Quote:

Originally Posted by bangraman /img/forum/go_quote.gif
This post is coming from a Head-Fi member with 9,500 posts.


You need a life.



it took a minute but i am laughing my a** off now. thanks for a good mood
smily_headphones1.gif
 
May 25, 2009 at 10:25 PM Post #268 of 325
Quote:

Originally Posted by WittyzTH /img/forum/go_quote.gif
No doubt, he is a troll. When we tried to fire him questions, he just told us to believe what he said or ignore some questions that leads him to answer things specifically.


I wish I could agree, but I have too little faith in humanity. I know people that act like the OP and aren't trolls...
 
May 26, 2009 at 2:56 AM Post #270 of 325
Quote:

Originally Posted by CDBacklash /img/forum/go_quote.gif
O Contrare, headphones are sending you a more accurate representation of what has actually been recorded than the speakers which give you a more realistic interpretation.


We will have to agree to disagree. They aren't for several reasons. One is that our hearing reference in terms of "realism" is free field - it's not from transducers placed millimetres from our eardrums, or at the most a few centimetres from the ear drum. The recorded sound is a stereophonic, free field representation of the real event. Try and play that same recording through headphones and it will be hopelessly out of whack - not only because the spatial clues and phase information is totally screwed up - but also because of the frequency imbalances mentioned by the original poster.

Headphones only work properly in a way acceptable to our brains when used with binaural recordings. It is impossible to make them work properly with a stereo recording because of the way our human hearing mechanism is designed to function. With purpose made binarual recordings, things are better, but the frequency imbalances still remain.

Why are there frequency problems? It's because it is almost impossible to put the theories into practice. Many people seem to totally ignore the huge difference between the way our ears perceive a free field sound versus sound force-fed directly into the ear canal, effectively bypassing the hugely significant effects of the pinna and the associated amplification effects of the ear canal when sound waves hit the pinna from a free field source.

There are easy tests you can even do at home to see how huge these differences can be. Take a a pair of IEMs for example. Then play tones through them at 2 Khz, 4 Khz, 6 Khz and 8 Khz at the same volume setting(these are standard audiology frequencies). See how relatively loud they are to each other. Then stick the IEM in your ear (turning the volume control down to a safe level of course). You will hear a significantly different relative of loudness of those frequencies when the IEM is stuck in your ear canal versus what you heard when you had them out on the table. If you don't, then you are just incredibly lucky.

Or here is another test you can try. Play some white noise through a pair of high quality speakers, then manipulate your pinna - push the pinna so it is flat to your skull, then pull the pinna away as far as you comfortably can. Listen to the drastic effects that has on the balance of the white noise. You will hear it become much more dull when the pinna is against the skull and much brighter when it is as far out from the skull as you can go.

It's all very well showing how a headphone response curve is similar to the inverse of a Fletcher-Munson curve, but again that is theory. If you actually examine the response curve in more detail - with much more accurate plotting of the frequencies and relative output levels - you will find it isn't neccessarily anywhere near as accurate as it is when it is just shown as a generic curve with a similar shape. When you get down to the precise details - the exact position and amplitudes of those peaks and troughs - you can be "out" by a huge amount.

And even if it did achieve "accuracy", it would only work properly if one assumes that an HTRF reading of your own actually matches off against the HRTF estimations made by the company who made the headphone. The chances of that happening are extremely slim indeed. The only way you could get a headphone that really worked correctly is to have one custom made - you would have to have your free field thresholds measured at a huge number of plot points in an anechoic chamber and then you would have to have a headphone made that produced those same thresholds.

This is where EQing can help to some extent, but as the OP correctly points out, the EQing required would be so incredibly sophisticated that it just would not be worth the trouble. You can certainly take a good EQ program and produce something which subjectively might make a pair of headphones sound tolerable and even subjectively good, but it is a thousand times easier just to buy a half decent pair of speakers if you want to approximate more closely what the original performance sounded like had you been in the audience.

We all hear differently, but at least with a pair of speakers, if you can achieve a reasonably flat measured response then you are most of the way there. Even if you have hearing loss or hypersensitivity, with a reasonably flat speaker it's not getting much in the way of the original recording. And with your own hearing (as good or bad as it may be), a flat pair of speakers are going to get you closer to what you would hear at the original performances, since you are using exactly the same pair of ears in both instances and you are using them in exactly the same way.

But as the OP points out -and as I have found in my own experiments over the last two years - headphones are just all over the shop. To get one that is accurate would be nothing more than an incredible fluke and worthy of you purchasing a lottery ticket to go along with it.

Using headphones is brain-bending stuff. It's why so many people keep upgrading them and complaining about sibilance, dullness, brightness, fatigue etc, whereas with a good pair of speakers, people can hold onto them for many years with contentment.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top