There's absolutely nothing wrong with single-ended.
Feb 21, 2007 at 12:52 AM Post #16 of 36
Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron_Dreamer /img/forum/go_quote.gif
In such a setup, testing balanced versus unbalanced IC's between a source and amp, I'm not surprised you heard little difference, especially considering the length of the cables. Now talking about balanced vs. unbalanced drive for headphones or speakers would be a bit more interesting
wink.gif



exactly.
 
Feb 21, 2007 at 12:57 AM Post #17 of 36
Quote:

Originally Posted by vcoheda /img/forum/go_quote.gif
If you go balanced (amp and phones), is it necessary that the source to amp connection be balanced as well.


Not necessary unless the amp's input will only accept a balanced input, in which case you'd need to use an adaptor or make an adaptor cable.

se
 
Feb 21, 2007 at 5:41 AM Post #18 of 36
Quote:

Originally Posted by Koyaan I. Sqatsi /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Not necessary unless the amp's input will only accept a balanced input, in which case you'd need to use an adaptor or make an adaptor cable.

se



No adapter needed.

If the input is "active balanced," which all modern inputs are, you can just drive one side.

If the input is balanced by the use of a transformer, which is the way it was done first in the phone company, then in broadcasting, then in sound reinforcement when tubes were in use, you have to ground the other side of the transformer, or at least tie it to the other side (ground) of the unbalanced feed.

Balanced inputs are only used for the common mode rejection. Any field cutting a wire will induce a small current. The longer the run, the greater the chance. If the field is induced in BOTH wires (as it will) of a balanced line, the common mode rejection of a transformer input will completely cancel the errant signal.

In the case of active balanced inputs, it will be nearly as good, based on the quality of the input stage.

Many active balanced inputs are done with only one op-amp. This stage will pretty much suck in the real world in situations where an actual balanced input is needed.

A real active balanced input requires a minimum of three op-amp stages. Still, to have the common mode rejection of an actual transformer, you need a servo circuit to actually --- well this gets to complicated to explain without drawing it. There are some recent patents on a way to apply this.

In a home, there is absolutely no reason for balanced interconnects. All it does is greatly increase the costs.

In a conventional broadcast facility, this can become important, but less so over time as technology progresses. Modern radio stations are being built around routers, so the audio doesn't go far making balanced audio overkill. (See router based mixing "console" systems by SAS, Sierra Automation Systems, and Harris Corp., or even Telos Systems.)

TV stations have been built around video routers for at least three decades. Hum on video is much more of a problem, yet unbalanced video is the standard. I have only seen balanced video used once, and that was when a video feed came from and AT&T microwave site, about a block to my site, and fed another, broadcaster owned micorwave transmitter. The only real reason to use balanced video in this case was because both sites were on different power feeds, and both on generator back-up systems. When one or both would go on generator, things could really go down hill without some sort of isolation.

In other words, balanced interconnects is a waste of money in a home situation.


From the output of the amp to the drivers in the headphones and argument COULD be made to keep them separate. HOWEVER, since most amps have pretty heavy ground returns, and most headphones have separate returns anyway, the chance of the IR losses causing a significant enough voltage to actually cause measurable, much less audible crosstalk is laughable.

But, if you use mono-blocks, and want to rewire your headphones so you cannot use them anywhere else without an adapter, go for it. You aren't going to make anything worse (unless you reverse the phase).
 
Feb 21, 2007 at 6:15 AM Post #19 of 36
Quote:

Originally Posted by pftrvlr /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I am not sure what difference a balanced headphone cable can make. Most of headphones are not sensitive enough to pick up any EM signal through its 10 feet cable.


That's what I have been saying. When I used to do rave and stage promotions and setups, you couldn't use RCA's as the cable may be up to 200 feet long between connections. Sometimes longer.

Because you are getting quite a degraded signal by then, you needed balanced to lower the noise floor to counteract that as much as possible. But using PA's, I don't think it mattered too much. But that's what balanced IC's we're originally designed to do. Connect over very long distances.

I agree that over a distance of only ten feet, the difference would probably be indistinguishable.

... But I do accept the fact that I could be wrong and if someone wants to prove it by giving me a blind test at Head-Fest, "I'm all ears"... so to speak.
580smile.gif


Quote:

Originally Posted by chesebert /img/forum/go_quote.gif
what a funny thread.. There is really nothing wrong with listening to ipod earphones, or not listening to music at all
biggrin.gif
Its illogical to think that there is something inherently wrong with the way one 'enjoys' his/her music.
rs1smile.gif



Couldn't agree with you more. Subject probably isn't worded correct.
What I meant was to share my experience with others regarding this subjecttive subject.
I know that due to reading this and other audio forums, some may be swayed to believe that upgrading to a balanced system would do miracles to their audio listening experiences. But it's my personal opinion that this is not the case... for now. At least not worth the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ it would take.

Like I said before - I always have an open mind and if someone we're to show me the audible differences, you may very well see me vouching for balanced one day.
 
Feb 21, 2007 at 6:19 AM Post #20 of 36
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wmcmanus /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Agreed. It won't make much of a difference (if any) unless you're talking about the balanced output of a headphone amp going to headphones with balanced cables. When you compare that to the single ended output of the same amp (the SDS-XRL for example) going to a headphones with single ended cables, the difference will be absolutely impossible to miss. The cables themselves are not what is causing the sonic improvement, but the fact that you're using all (as opposed to half in single ended mode) of the amp's topology. So I guess what I'm saying is that it's not a fair fight, and this is why so many people love to listen to fully balanced amp/headphone combos.


Good point. I didn't think of that. The M902 has only single ended outs.

I definitely would like to try now on a fully balanced system.

However, when I was substituting cables, it was for both balanced and unbal at the same time.

The cheetah on unbal actually sounded a lot better than generic on balanced xlr. Also, the only generic xlr they had was FIVE metres long. Length of cable was probably also a factor there.
 
Feb 21, 2007 at 6:20 AM Post #21 of 36
Quote:

Originally Posted by Head-Case /img/forum/go_quote.gif
No adapter needed.

If the input is "active balanced," which all modern inputs are, you can just drive one side.



Yes, but your unbalanced output will usually be through an RCA and your balanced input through an XLR. So you'll need either an RCA to XLR adaptor or a cable terminated with an RCA on one end and XLR on the other. That's what I meant when I said an adaptor or adaptor cable. Wasn't meaning an adaptor to convert the unbalanced output to balanced.

Quote:

If the input is balanced by the use of a transformer, which is the way it was done first in the phone company, then in broadcasting, then in sound reinforcement when tubes were in use, you have to ground the other side of the transformer, or at least tie it to the other side (ground) of the unbalanced feed.


Depends on the transformer. If it's a dual winding trannie with a Faraday shield between primary and secondary as opposed to say a bifilar, then you can drive the input from either a balanced or unbalanced source without any strapping.

Quote:

Balanced inputs are only used for the common mode rejection. Any field cutting a wire will induce a small current. The longer the run, the greater the chance. If the field is induced in BOTH wires (as it will) of a balanced line, the common mode rejection of a transformer input will completely cancel the errant signal.


Pretty much, yes.

Quote:

In the case of active balanced inputs, it will be nearly as good, based on the quality of the input stage.

Many active balanced inputs are done with only one op-amp. This stage will pretty much suck in the real world in situations where an actual balanced input is needed.

A real active balanced input requires a minimum of three op-amp stages. Still, to have the common mode rejection of an actual transformer, you need a servo circuit to actually --- well this gets to complicated to explain without drawing it. There are some recent patents on a way to apply this.


Yes, I'm familiar with Bill Whitlock's patents.

Quote:

In a home, there is absolutely no reason for balanced interconnects. All it does is greatly increase the costs.


Mmmm. Don't see that it greatly increases the costs.

Quote:

From the output of the amp to the drivers in the headphones and argument COULD be made to keep them separate. HOWEVER, since most amps have pretty heavy ground returns, and most headphones have separate returns anyway, the chance of the IR losses causing a significant enough voltage to actually cause measurable, much less audible crosstalk is laughable.


Pretty much, yes.

Quote:

But, if you use mono-blocks, and want to rewire your headphones so you cannot use them anywhere else without an adapter, go for it. You aren't going to make anything worse (unless you reverse the phase).


True enough.

se
 
Feb 21, 2007 at 6:29 AM Post #22 of 36
Quote:

Originally Posted by Head-Case /img/forum/go_quote.gif
No adapter needed.

If the input is "active balanced," which all modern inputs are, you can just drive one side.

If the input is balanced by the use of a transformer, which is the way it was done first in the phone company, then in broadcasting, then in sound reinforcement when tubes were in use, you have to ground the other side of the transformer, or at least tie it to the other side (ground) of the unbalanced feed.

Balanced inputs are only used for the common mode rejection. Any field cutting a wire will induce a small current. The longer the run, the greater the chance. If the field is induced in BOTH wires (as it will) of a balanced line, the common mode rejection of a transformer input will completely cancel the errant signal.

In the case of active balanced inputs, it will be nearly as good, based on the quality of the input stage.

Many active balanced inputs are done with only one op-amp. This stage will pretty much suck in the real world in situations where an actual balanced input is needed.

A real active balanced input requires a minimum of three op-amp stages. Still, to have the common mode rejection of an actual transformer, you need a servo circuit to actually --- well this gets to complicated to explain without drawing it. There are some recent patents on a way to apply this.

In a home, there is absolutely no reason for balanced interconnects. All it does is greatly increase the costs.

In a conventional broadcast facility, this can become important, but less so over time as technology progresses. Modern radio stations are being built around routers, so the audio doesn't go far making balanced audio overkill. (See router based mixing "console" systems by SAS, Sierra Automation Systems, and Harris Corp., or even Telos Systems.)

TV stations have been built around video routers for at least three decades. Hum on video is much more of a problem, yet unbalanced video is the standard. I have only seen balanced video used once, and that was when a video feed came from and AT&T microwave site, about a block to my site, and fed another, broadcaster owned micorwave transmitter. The only real reason to use balanced video in this case was because both sites were on different power feeds, and both on generator back-up systems. When one or both would go on generator, things could really go down hill without some sort of isolation.

In other words, balanced interconnects is a waste of money in a home situation.


From the output of the amp to the drivers in the headphones and argument COULD be made to keep them separate. HOWEVER, since most amps have pretty heavy ground returns, and most headphones have separate returns anyway, the chance of the IR losses causing a significant enough voltage to actually cause measurable, much less audible crosstalk is laughable.

But, if you use mono-blocks, and want to rewire your headphones so you cannot use them anywhere else without an adapter, go for it. You aren't going to make anything worse (unless you reverse the phase).



x2.

You worded and explained it a lot better than I did.
I was only going on my observations and logic as an audio production assisstant back in the day.

I can't measure any audible difference in a home situation. But I do agree that for large stage or large broadcast studio setups, balanced is essential. That's what it was designed for.
 
Feb 21, 2007 at 6:31 AM Post #23 of 36
Quote:

Originally Posted by KrooLism /img/forum/go_quote.gif
That's what I have been saying. When I used to do rave and stage promotions and setups, you couldn't use RCA's as the cable may be up to 200 feet long between connections. Sometimes longer.

Because you are getting quite a degraded signal by then, you needed balanced to lower the noise floor to counteract that as much as possible. But using PA's, I don't think it mattered too much. But that's what balanced IC's we're originally designed to do. Connect over very long distances.

I agree that over a distance of only ten feet, the difference would probably be indistinguishable.

... But I do accept the fact that I could be wrong and if someone wants to prove it by giving me a blind test at Head-Fest, "I'm all ears"... so to speak.
580smile.gif




Couldn't agree with you more. Subject probably isn't worded correct.
What I meant was to share my experience with others regarding this subjecttive subject.
I know that due to reading this and other audio forums, some may be swayed to believe that upgrading to a balanced system would do miracles to their audio listening experiences. But it's my personal opinion that this is not the case... for now. At least not worth the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ it would take.

Like I said before - I always have an open mind and if someone we're to show me the audible differences, you may very well see me vouching for balanced one day.



I will be balancing a stock HD650 cable and trying it out of my Lavry DA10's XLR outs and the built in headphone amp.

I plan on making a thread with differences.
 
Feb 21, 2007 at 9:48 AM Post #24 of 36
I find that when going balanced, a choice of cable is a lot less critical. You can get away with MUCH cheaper cables than you would by going single ended.

This statement applies only to interconnects. I have not heard a significant difference to justify going balanced on the headphones.
 
Feb 21, 2007 at 4:12 PM Post #25 of 36
Quote:

Originally Posted by Koyaan I. Sqatsi /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Well really all "balanced" is about is a balance of impedances, i.e. the impedances of each line to ground. And that's really only meaningful with regard to common-mode noise rejection.


The search function is a wonderful thing:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=142800&
 
Feb 22, 2007 at 5:22 PM Post #27 of 36
Quote:

Originally Posted by Koyaan I. Sqatsi /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Ok. Would you care to elaborate just a bit so I don't have to take a stab at second guessing?


Balanced headphones use are not grounded in the usual sense. Both sides of the headphone have active amplification, and the headphone itself is not grounded. A balanced stereo headphone amp actually has four channels of amplification. So, there's a bit more going on than "balance of impedances, i.e. the impedances of each line to ground" (which is not all that relevant in the absence of a ground) and common-mode noise rejection going on in a balanced headphone rig. The referenced thread provides more detail, which is why I provided the link.
 
Feb 22, 2007 at 6:22 PM Post #28 of 36
i certainly can't speak to the technical side of balanced vs unbalanced. but i can certainly speak to the audible difference. i was at the small nyc meet several months ago and tyll was there with a maxxed balanced home unit and a pair of balanced K701s. both myself and my friend's jaw pratically dropped to the floor when we went from single-ended K701s to the balanced - from the same amp. it was absolutely heavenly. enough so that i'm working towards creating a balanced set-up. it is a lot more money but to my ears - it is worth it.
 
Feb 22, 2007 at 8:42 PM Post #30 of 36
I think it makes a different on which phones you will be using balanced. If the headphone low impedance; say, less than 60ohms I think the difference will be minimal. Maybe you can still tell some difference but I don't believe you can with the higher end amplification. With the HD650s that are above 250 ohms their must be some difference that is easy to identify based on all the allocates that this balanced phone receives.

The difference between a single-end headphone and a balance headphone will be more pronounced with a higher impedance headphone of the same model.
 

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