[swanlee]

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Originally Posted by The Eleutherian /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm sorry it came off as harsh, but you just aren't getting this. This is not about how simple or easy to implement your desired features are. It's not about you being a weirdo freak. It's not about you being insignificant. It's not about any individual, it's about market dynamics. No matter what design decisions are made, some user's needs will not be met. It takes millions of dollars to spin up a production line for a new device. That is not an exaggeration, literally millions of dollars. The only way MS is going to do that is if they think they can make good return on their investment. There simply is not a big enough market for HD based players to justify that. I realize that you want to buy one, but until you have several hundred thousand friends who feel the same way it aint going to happen. We brought back EQ - despite the fact that it is a fairly niche feature and does not influence buying patterns very much statistically speaking - because with the new capabilities of the Tegra it was a relatively small investment to implement. So obviously in some cases we are willing to cater to the minority. Creating a new HD based SKU is not a small investment, it is a huge undertaking. The payoff has to be there. AND IT ISN'T. Flash will get up to 128GB soon. In the meantime could you please stop flogging this dead and rotting horse corpse?

Flogging this horse? seriously What the ZuneHd lineup with only a 32gb max capacity was just recently announced also what was VERY recently announced was that ALL of the previous gen Zunes would be discontinued this is pretty recent stuff so I don't see how you can say it has been flogged to death.

And as you mentioned the EQ was brought back and one of the reasons was due to user demand I would think MS would also like to here about how their new lineup effects previous customers. I want to give you my money you guys just don't seem willing to take it.

I understand that no matter what is done all users needs will not be met but you have a significant number of people in the zune eco system with 120 Gb and 80 Gb Zunes that have no upgrade path to the newer models. And now the newer Zunes can playback HD video which takes a great amount of space. Seems odd to add features that can utilize a lot of space while cutting the capacity by almost 4 times compared to the zune 120.

Even removing my pretty simple needs of a high capacity device and an EQ let's take why wife for example. She's a runner she loved her small flash zune because it was small light and the flash zune with her arm band made running really easy. Her flash zune was stolen from her car so now we are in the market for a replacement for her. She doesn't need high capacity or an EQ but would like a Zune that was the same size as her previous flash Zune but MS has now canned all previous zune models. How is the Zunehd going to handle a jogger? What options does she have if she wants a much smaller sized device and would like to purchase a new model with more modern features?

It almost seems like you aren't getting it, if you are watching market trends etc. why are you using a bb gun instead of a shot gun? and forcing your customers to adjust their needs instead of offering a product line that has more choice and options that will fill more of people's needs?

You may be maximizing profits by offering a very a thin product line but you are also going to be isolating previous customers by NOT meeting the needs of people in which your product line did meet the needs for previously.

And why should I stop expressing my thoughts and needs in a zune device? Do you guys NOT want feedback on some of your decisions? Is posting about it here and on the official zune forums really such a bother? Isn't that what these types of forums are for? Pretty much telling me to shut up about this is seriously messed up if everyone just shut up about what they'd like in a player and offered no feedback at all how good would that be for MS and how would MS really know what there real customers actually wanted? Polls and marketing statistics can only get you so far sometimes hearing what actual real paying customers want can be of some use.

 

[akitohk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by foreverfi /img/forum/go_quote.gif Dose Zune also don't available in EU or ASIA?

It don't avaiable in Eu/Asia, but we can buy it from ebay or something like that.
Since the previous zune can't display Chinese, Japanese/other asian language, It can't be popular in asia. Although many of us in Asia love the design of Zune HD and the fancy GUI......

 

[swbf2cheater]

So the reason you all are so into this new zune is solely for its internet browsing, right? Because it's no where near as powerful as the Cowon S9.

for 220$ you get a 30 hours of audio battery life and 4-5 hours of video ( ya right, they all claim this but its more like 2 ) A basic EQ, and a nice touch screen with 16gb of memory

the cowon s9 is 199$ sometimes lower, 16gb of pure audiophile bliss, supporting LOSSLESS music, with an EQ rivaling that of a studio. 60 HOUR AUDIO BATTERY LIFE, 11 VIDEO, touch screen 16gb. But it doesnt have internet.

So my question to you all is, what good is an "hd" player that doesnt play hd videos? Because this new zune cant play HD, it only outs to HD, and possibly records it later if new equipment comes out for it. The screen cannot support hd video.

 

[raynman]

Quote:

So my question to you all is, what good is an "hd" player that doesnt play hd videos? Because this new zune cant play HD, it only outs to HD, and possibly records it later if new equipment comes out for it. The screen cannot support hd video.

I believe it's because the size of the screen on these players makes playing HD video unnecessary. From the videos online, it appears the video quality seems excellent. We shall see on Tuesday.

 

[The Eleutherian]

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[penartur]

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You can buy another brand of player.

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And don't be melodramatic; no one NEEDS a high capacity device.

So MS is saying for all this 15% of portable audio market share who bought a hdd-based zune: "Yes, we've f**cked you, lol, if you want an upgrade - forget about us and get yourself an ipod, we don't need your money, give them to the apple, and we don't need that 15% market share that we've been luckily enough to get in a three years, we're giving that all to apple".

 

[penartur]

Quote:

Flash will get up to 128GB soon

Well, then drop hdd-based zunes after you'll release 128gb flash-based only, not a years before.
But you're dropping hdd-based zunes now, when the largest capacity flash-based zune is only 32GB. Lol, you're marketing HD as the primary feature of new zune, and it doesn't have enough memory even for one blu-ray disc!
Quote:

MS is not going to spin up a multi-million dollar effort to get a couple hundred bucks from you.

MS could just release an old zune (80/120) with the new 160gb hard drive, just like apple did, that would cover enough part of market. I doubt if that is "a multi-million dollar effort".
But you've get what you've asked for, all the people purchased zune 80/120 will not pay to you. If they will need a more storage, they will give their money to apple. And if someone with zune 4/8 will feel that that is too short of storage, they will probably give their money to apple (nano), sony etc, but not you.
There was a large device with large capacity and small device with small capacity. Now you're releasing a large device with small capacity, what's the point? Oh yes, i've completely forgot that, IT WILL PLAY HD... whoops, wait, i can't upload a single HD movie onto it because there is not enough space even if i will delete everything else.

It took me about 30 seconds to find this great article on the subject: iPod sales now driven by style more than storage - Big Tech - Fortune Brainstorm Tech[/url]
Okay, one model is more popular than another one. Is that a reason the manufacturer should drop a second model and produce only a first one?
Look at any hardware manufacturer. Why they're producing such numbers of entirely different models? Why wouldn't they calculate and see what model is "the best", and then drop all the others? That's because they're wanting to get some money from the first model, and some money from the second, and some money from the third, and "first model is more popular than the second" is not the reason for rejecting all the money manufacturer could get from another models.

BTW, if you're really from MS, i want to tell you another advice.
I love Zune 80/120, i really love it, it is so much better than ipod... but the firmware is killing me. I believe that it is great for an average customer, but for me and, i believe, for much of another people rockbox is a way better, because of its simplified interface and codecs support and cuesheets support etc. I've sold my zune because i couldn't live with it, even the original sony NW-HD5 and kenwoods' interface was much better than that an rockbox is just great.
I don't ask you to develop another firmware, but you've could at least open the bootloader and core drivers, so rockbox developers will port rockbox on zune.
I can tell you that personally i would have buy such zune 120, even if it will cost more than current zune 120. Maybe even for $400 - just think what money you can get nearly for free if there is at least thousand of people like me

 

[Skampster]

I live in Australia.
I have 3 iPhones, two iPods, itouch and a Shuffle in our house.
It is over half way through 2009 and till this day, I have not even seen a Zune in the flesh.
This is why it will ultimately fail.

 

[swanlee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Eleutherian /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm going to give this one more shot, even though I feel like I'm not making any progress here... April. I just did some searching to get the exact date, and you've been going on about this capacity thing since the start of April. That is a really long time to hear somebody say the same thing over and over in thread after thread. Not to mention that before capacity it was EQ, lossless and gapless. You have a problem with repetition. The horse was dead a while ago. It is now rotting. You have made it abundantly clear that the zune HD does not have enough storage for you, and that you won't be buying it. No one who has been even vaguely paying attention is unclear about this. Give it a rest. You are not grasping the numbers involved here. MS is not going to spin up a multi-million dollar effort to get a couple hundred bucks from you. The market isn't there on the scale it needs to be. Can you wrap your head around the notion that this is not an individual thing, but something that operates on the scale of hundreds of thousands of people? And technically the new product does not affect previous customers; it only affects the customers who buy it. People can keep right on using their old zunes just as if the new one never came out. Nothing is being forced on anyone, stop being melodramatic. Dude, control yourself. Obviously they have an upgrade path: They can decide if they want the zune HD and buy it if they do. Just because you bought a product that you were under no compulsion whatsoever to buy it does not make MS beholden to your desires at the cost of profitability. They announced that they weren't doing another round of updates this year or new production runs. One of the obvious reasons for that is that there are still a bunch left that haven't sold yet. Which are still available, and now are cheaper. It's not like MS rounded up and destroyed all the remaining units... So what exactly is the problem getting a replacement? I'm not sure what difficulties you picture with the zune HD "handling" a jogger, but I'm pretty sure she could make it work. I doubt the slight increase in size and weight between the 16 and the zune HD is going to be noticed. Or she could buy a new nano or any number of other mini-DAPs. You keep acting like you're backed into a corner here, it's kind of ridiculous. No my friend, it is YOU who are proving unable to get it. I don't know what the whole BB/shotgun analogy is supposed to mean, but the fact is that market trends do not say that bringing out a HDD-based DAP is the right thing to do. It took me about 30 seconds to find this great article on the subject: iPod sales now driven by style more than storage - Big Tech - Fortune Brainstorm Tech And for christ's sake, we aren't forcing anyone into anything! Why do you insist on painting yourself as a victim? The previous product line met one set of needs. It didn't sell well enough to continue producing. Now we're targeting a different set of needs. The previous customers are free to keep right on using the product that meets their needs. The new customers are free to buy the product that meets theirs. Feedback is great. The same piece of feedback - that wasn't even slightly unexpected the first time it was given - over and over and over for months gets old. Plus this helpless victimized consumer trip you get on makes it extra annoying. Polls and marketing stats are based on real paying customers. Your problem is that you can't wrap your head around the fact that you are a niche user. All the data proves it. Do some googling and see for yourself. You keep making statements about "what our customers want", but you don't appreciate the fact that you are not representative of that. I am really quickly losing my ability to continue this with even the barest hint of decorum, so I'm going to stop responding on this topic. I'm sorry if I'vyoe offended you in any way, I'm just being honest about my own personal feelings on this subject.

Dude stick with hardware cause customer service is not your strong suit.

Yes I am a niche user which makes it even more important to make sure my voice is heard. but basically telling me my needs are making you angry is freaking silly you seem to have some serious anger issues. Really What is your problem getting all pissed off at me for posting my needs and concerns about the Zune line up in very appropriate places like this? I sure hope you management doesn't share your lax attitude towards your customers needs.

I'm a user I do not care about mass market research and profit margins, I want a portable audio device that meets my needs, end of story that is MY BOTTOM LINE. The switch to a two model low capacity line up is leaving current zune owners with little choice if they want to upgrade. End of story.

It would have been much better to continue at least one smaller flash based player and one high capacity based player until flash storage prices and technology caught up with hard drives not before. It wouldn't be THAT difficult to cover your bases while still moving the technology forward.

You know why I complained about the EQ? Cause MS removed it after first gen, You know why I complained about gapless? Cause it is an important feature for audio that got put in a firmware release then was broken in a later release. Do you know why I complain about capacity? Cause you offered high capacity models and now don't. You guys seem to keep going one step forward two steps back with features and models offered. This is what happens when you let marketing research and stats dictate your decisions instead of common sense.

Notice a pattern? Stop jerking around the user base by adding and then removing features, you can move forward with your product line without isolating your previous customers.

I honestly think you need to step back and re asses your ability to handle your self in these types of discussions. I've been very happy with MS in the past and have never run across anyone that worked at MS that had such a short fuse on issues like this. None of my complaints are hugely far fetched or have not been echoed by other users. Look at the official zune forums there are already a number of threads about lack of capacity, there was a 90 page thread about the EQ, there have been a number of threads on gapless.

You've told me to buy another product, to pretty much shut up and that my needs are niche and do not matter in the last few posts of yours. You very easily could have expressed your thoughts without attacking me or belittling me, you could have explained marketing conditions without being condescending telling me to buy another product. Seriously step back your not doing MS any favors by your current attitude.

 

[CodeToad]

Who says "The Eleutherian" has anything at all to do with Microsoft?

This thread has a funny smell to it.

 

[shigzeo]

Zune should play HD fine - as fine as any portable that can play it. Of course, on a low res screen, it won't matter - except that you don't have to transcode or compress both video resolution etc to play back.

The iPhone 3GS and iPod touch 3G also do HD playback, but I have no idea about output to TV. personally, merely having playback is enough as I hate to carry two separate versions of a movie on my HD; one for computer/TV and one for the portable which needs cropped playback.

Quote:

Originally Posted by swbf2cheater /img/forum/go_quote.gif So the reason you all are so into this new zune is solely for its internet browsing, right? Because it's no where near as powerful as the Cowon S9. for 220$ you get a 30 hours of audio battery life and 4-5 hours of video ( ya right, they all claim this but its more like 2 ) A basic EQ, and a nice touch screen with 16gb of memory the cowon s9 is 199$ sometimes lower, 16gb of pure audiophile bliss, supporting LOSSLESS music, with an EQ rivaling that of a studio. 60 HOUR AUDIO BATTERY LIFE, 11 VIDEO, touch screen 16gb. But it doesnt have internet. So my question to you all is, what good is an "hd" player that doesnt play hd videos? Because this new zune cant play HD, it only outs to HD, and possibly records it later if new equipment comes out for it. The screen cannot support hd video.

 

[stevenjchang]

this is TOO funny

Quote:

Originally Posted by komi /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yeah, iPod Killer ! LOOOOL ! Zune HD goona suck just like all other ZUNES ... Best thing is - Zune is concern about HD Video on MP3 player .. First mistake ... I dont rememebr i know ANYONE who plays some hd @ home from screw* DAP ... Second - Are you serious when you try for years to make a social network and actualy use s DAP to promote this network ? AND they keep doing - thats why ZUNE HD gonna fail ... By the way, does anyone knows what codec Zune HD got in it ?

i LOVE ZUNE's......
~~i love my zune 30, i even bought a zune 80. tried an ipod 80 aswell, couldnt live w/o the eq, so sold them both and bought the zune 30 for a second time,
~~i will probably get the zuneHd soon as i get $300 to blow

but i'm completely sold on your arguements. the people at the MS Zune division, complete retards.
\when i hear your arguments... zune HD??? hahaha joke, why not Zune HighDef Audio or something audio related.
\the social??? i remember when i finally had a friend who also had a zune, we were like, oh, lets wirelessly exchange music.... we got bored in like 2 min.

who told them it was a good idea to take off the EQ? do they know how many people bought the 80 like me sold it to buy back the 30? when i sold my 80g on ebay, the buyer had a 30g. after 3 days he contacted me, he said "i hate this thing, it has no eq! i am sticking with my 30g, and asked if i would consider refunding him the money and taking the zune back if he gave me $10 for my troubles."

i told him that was the same reason i sold my 80 to him in the first place.

 

[The Eleutherian]

.

 

[stevenjchang]

hey before you keep talking talking talking for 3 more pages...
what mp3 players do you own?
and why such a need to defend a company you dont work for, can't you tell everyone else is just venting?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Eleutherian /img/forum/go_quote.gif MS isn't saying anything. I'm just a dude talking about how he personally feels and trying to share some of my professional insight into the dynamics of producing consumer electronics on a large scale. This is all stuff that has been said by many people in many articles, on many forums, etc. etc. This is not stuff that is specific to MS, all large consumer electronics companies work this way. I am several pay-grades away from the people in charge of making these decisions. And why is all this exaggeration necessary? First, HDD-based zunes do not have 15% market share under the tightest of comparisons. When you widen the comparison and factor in the touch and other similar products, it isn't anywhere close to that number. No company on earth is going to fight to hold or expand a non-profitable toehold in a disappearing market segment. Apple can afford to stay in this segment because of the economies of scale. That's what happens when you have 85+% of a market locked down and sell millions of units, you gain many advantages related to scale. Second, portraying this as MS "screwing" you seems a little drama-queenish. A company not giving you exactly the updates you want year after year isn't "screwing" you, it's leaving you in exactly the same situation you were in before. If MS started talking about how consumers "screwed" them by not buying enough 80s/120s would that seem reasonable? Then why does it seem so reasonable to say the reverse? Companies bring out products to try to make money. People either buy them or they don't based on how well the product fits their needs. If not enough people buy them to make money for the company, the company stops making them or refocuses them to try to suit the average needs of the customers. This is a very simple equation.

 

[Ham Sandwich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevenjchang /img/forum/go_quote.gif hey before you keep talking talking talking for 3 more pages... what mp3 players do you own? and why such a need to defend a company you dont work for, can't you tell everyone else is just venting?

He said he works for MS as a software developer in test (SDET). That means he's in the QA end of things. He would have no control over the direction and future development of anything Zune. If you want to complain about that you'll need to find the managers that the product managers report to and further up the management line as well. The guys doing the development and testing can't do anything about it. They just get to play with the cool toys while they're in development and celebrate when the thing actually ships.

Complaining to The Eleutherian isn't going to get you anything changed. I have my own nit-picking opinions about some things Zune, but there is no need for me to complain to The Eleutherian about them.

The Zune is still way cool because it does gapless and I assume the Zune HD will as well (it better). That alone is enough to make the Zune team heroes in my book.