[TheAttorney]

Okay, despite having said I'd bowed out...Uncle Erik, you put a lot of emphasis on the ridiculous claims that cable  companies make. Strangely enough, I don't ever take notice what their marketing says. Never. I don't care what they claim. In the case of some (e.g Nordost) I have no idea what they're talking about. The end result to me is just whether the "black box" inserted into my system is worth it's cost or not. 
 
I do get irritated when people like me are compared to quacks, crackpots etc (irritated, but it's ok, I get over it soon enough). Just for the record, my 3 final subjects at high school were Pure Maths, Applied Maths and Physics. And I've got a university degree in electrical/electronic engineering. This proves little, but it does at least give an indication that I have some leanings towards sensible, analytical thought. None of my education even gets close to explaining the disparity of theory to what I have observed (heard) in practice. My scepticism of cables was once as high as anyone's in this forum (the main diffference was that I didn't worry about it).
 
That just leaves placebo. Well maybe, but I'm fine with it.  

 

[mike1127]

The one thing premium cables provide, without a doubt, is the satisfaction of owning a beautiful object, the satisfaction of going through a hookup ritual, a listening ritual. The experience may be entirely "placebo"---but placebo effects are, in fact, real.
 
This is comparable to a day at the spa---which may be claimed to improve your skin permanently, but is probably just an enjoyable pampering experience.
 
I would say most cable buyers know what they want from it, get what they want, and feel it's worth it.

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

The one thing premium cables provide, without a doubt, is the satisfaction of owning a beautiful object, the satisfaction of going through a hookup ritual, a listening ritual. The experience may be entirely "placebo"---but placebo effects are, in fact, real.
 
This is comparable to a day at the spa---which may be claimed to improve your skin permanently, but is probably just an enjoyable pampering experience.
 
I would say most cable buyers know what they want from it, get what they want, and feel it's worth it.

Okay. but cable manufacturers make claims about the actual sonic qualities of the cables, they do not say: this cable will improve your system through the power of suggestion and pride of ownership

 

 

[mike1127]

Quote:

Okay. but cable manufacturers make claims about the actual sonic qualities of the cables, they do not say: this cable will improve your system through the power of suggestion and pride of ownership

 

Sure, I guess that's an issue for some people. Might I point out that would spoil the placebo effect? In double-blind trials of medicines, the doctors don't reveal the placebo is merely a sugar pill.
 
With very few discontented customers, the cable industry can do what it wants, AFAIC.
 

 

[beeman458]

Mike 1127 wrote:
 
...the satisfaction of going through a hookup ritual, a listening ritual.
 
Sounds like somebody's jealous cause others have what you don't.  Don't know where you read your above as there's no ritual anywhere.  Ya plug em in and go about your business.  They either work or they don't.  Only an anti-cable guy would expose their bias by making inflammatory comments such as your above.
 
I have my expensive and pretty cables coming in; hopefully they'll be here tomorrow.
 
Time will tell if they're more than just pretty cables.
 
Currently listening to Cash: "American III: Solitary Man"

 

[mike1127]

Quote:

Mike 1127 wrote:
 
...the satisfaction of going through a hookup ritual, a listening ritual.
 
Sounds like somebody's jealous.  Don't know where you read your above as there's no ritual anywhere.

You judge me too quickly.
 
For me, the term "ritual" has very positive connotations. I find it satisfying to hook up cables, anticipate the listening, and go through the whole "ritual" of comparing things, writing notes, and finally writing a review.
 
I also prepare my CDs with Auric Illumniator II and love the little ritual of applying the gel, waiting for it to dry, and buffing it to a shine.
 
I use premium interconnects in my system totaling about $1500. Premium power cords totaling $1000.
 
I did a blind listening test and could not tell my cables apart from Radio Shack. I don't draw the conclusion they have no sonic effect; I had an unusual protocol in my tests and want to try a different protocol someday. But I failed the test so spectacularly that I have to remain open to the possibility I spent $2500 on eye candy.

 

[beeman458]

Mike 1127 wrote:
 
You judge me too quickly.
 
For me, the term "ritual" has very positive connotations.
 
Sorry, the comments came across as pejoratives.  My provincial bias showed in the comment in that I don't do rituals and don't know anybody who does.  In my circle, that's known as OCD and I'm not pointing fingers with that comment.  Just we don't do rituals.
 

 
I got a new headphone cable on order.  When it arrives, I'll marvel at it beauty and construction and then plug it in without ritual or fanfare.  Okay, ya spend close to four hundred bucks and there's gonna be a little whoop-ee.  I'll make my snap decisions based upon some standard music selections.  No notes will be taken.  No reviews will be written and to those who ask, I'll comment if it was a positive or negative experience and a few sentences why.
 
FWIW, I bought a two hundred dollar, 10' power cable.  It failed and sucked the life out of the music.  I immediately plugged the old two dollar and ninety-five cent power supply cable back in and the music came back to life.  I was sicker over losing the quality of music then I was blowing two hundred bucks on a power cable that killed the sound of music and the power cable was all but thrown away.
 
The point, not all of us cable guys are into placebo or rituals.

 

[mike1127]

 
Quote:

Sorry, the comments came across as pejoratives.  My provincial bias showed in the comment in that I don't do rituals and don't know anybody who does.  In my circle, that's known as OCD and I'm not pointing fingers with that comment.  Just we don't do rituals.

It's more related to what craftsmen (craftspeople?) like.

 

[Bullseye]

Let me fix that for you:
 
Placebo effects are real for the subject who experience those effects, however they are not real for the cable.
 
To put it in other words, the subject is the one changing in perception, not the cable in electrical response. 
 
Quote:

The one thing premium cables provide, without a doubt, is the satisfaction of owning a beautiful object, the satisfaction of going through a hookup ritual, a listening ritual. The experience may be entirely "placebo"---but placebo effects are, in fact, real.

 

[xnor]

Quote:

Let me fix that for you:
 
Placebo effects are real for the subject who experience those effects, however they are not real for the cable.
 
To put it in other words, the subject is the one changing in perception, not the cable in electrical response. 

That's funny indeed!
 
"I don't care about anything as long as I (think I) can hear a difference" t_t ouch!

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

Sure, I guess that's an issue for some people. Might I point out that would spoil the placebo effect? In double-blind trials of medicines, the doctors don't reveal the placebo is merely a sugar pill.
 
With very few discontented customers, the cable industry can do what it wants, AFAIC.
 

This raises an ethical issue. When a medical DBT gathers enough evidence to show that the medicine is much more effective than the placebo then frequently the trial is stopped and the placebo patients given the option to use the real drug. Also in medical trials patients for *new* treatments are aware that they may be given a placebo. Cable sellers promote cables with sometimes plausible explanations but they never say that the effect may be psychological instead of electronic, now depending on whether the cable sellers actually believe their cables have some actual property that make a difference or not affects how ehical they are being. Someone can be wholly honourable but mistaken and retain some positive ethics, to deliberately promote stuff that you think as no active ingredient as it were is another matter, this is why in medical DBT neither doctor or patient knows if a given patient has been given a placebo a 3rd party hold this information.
 
 
One confounding factor, if a cable seller promotes something they know to be chemically inert but also believes that by making it shiny and bling the buyer will experience increased listening , is that ethical ?

 

[Prog Rock Man]

This is like homeopathy. People who promote or sell such actually herald the lack of an active ingredient, somehow claiming that is what makes the medicine work.

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

This is like homeopathy. People who promote or sell such actually herald the lack of an active ingredient, somehow claiming that is what makes the medicine work.

 
An interesting article aout Homeopathy

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2007/nov/16/sciencenews.g2

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Quote:

 
An interesting article aout Homeopathy

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2007/nov/16/sciencenews.g2

To sum homeopathy and many cable makers/buyers up, bad science.

 

[lazard]

If you guys really believe that these high priced cables have no scientific or audible difference compared to stock cables, then take them to court for false advertisement then.  Until then, I will enjoy listening to my twag cable.