The Transport vs Full Function Thread

[goodvibes]

Could be but why sub par? Portable will not have a ground loop or switching supply to mess things about so decoupling is less critical and there are xformers that will fit if needed. Any signal degredation form processor noise etc will be in either. For me, if it's TOS, I'll just pass and use what's inboard or look elsewhere for home. I get it, it needs to be done right but is TOS that? I guess it's relative and I may be asking for too much in general.

 

[qusp]

Quote:

Could be but why sub par? Portable will not have a ground loop or switching supply to mess things about so decoupling is less critical and there are xformers that will fit if needed. Any signal degredation form processor noise etc will be in either. For me, if it's TOS, I'll just pass and use what's inboard or look elsewhere for home. I get it, it needs to be done right but is TOS that? I guess it's relative and I may be asking for too much in general.

erm what makes you think that portable is going to be immune to ground loops? just because you wont hear a 100hz hum doesnt mean theres no ground loop. particularly given 2 devices that are likely operating on 2 different battery voltages and thus very likely using different reference voltages for 'ground'. sub par because i'm yet to see a transformer used in a portable device, are you going to fit them? they should be at the dac end anyway. i've also never seen BNC (the only possible way to get 75ohms, 75ohms RCA is bollocks/impossible) or proper termination.
 
that all seems pretty sub par to me, seems like your asking for too little, not too much. optical skips it all in one simple foolproof step and a decent receiver and dac will not produce ANY difference, if the signal data is recovered, the signal data is recovered, no dac is going to use the recovered master clock, most wont even attempt to extract it. its what the receiver then does with it that makes the difference.
 
USB is a better choice than all of them, but thats not under discussion

 

[goodvibes]

Ground loops are by definition created by multiple ground points between components instead of one. A battery device has, in effect, a floating ground. There is not a potential problem which is what creates the loop and added noise. Why don't you point out the problems with tos as well? Bandwith, jitter and noise are all poorer with tos when other things are right and you can hear it. It may be fine here and perhaps it is the lesser of 2 evils but if so why not just make the all in one good enough. It's why I voted for all in one with the possibility for dig out. It could have an inferior DAC/amp and still perform better sans the SPdif inteface, senders, recievers, ASRCs etc.
 
I get much better results from a Weiss int202 1394 interfce to spdif than I have from any direct USB device. I think my TC Konnect was better as well. In fact, the Young dac performed better via the Spdif than it did with it's dedicated USB interface. I actually prefer other sources to computers as players but need to use them sometimes.

 

[qusp]

floating ground means.... well..... floating ground, doesnt mean theres NO ground and in respect to portable it most certainly doesnt mean no voltage. When 2 interconnected devices with a shared ground such as with electrical spdif (without transformers) are floating? no they arent; a difference in potential between the 2 ground references (usually in the MIDDLE of the supply voltage, so battery VCC/2) creates a loop.
 
you can even have 'ground' loops in the one device with a single ground, created by the resistance of the ground plane, higher currents in some places on the plane and ohms law means there is higher resistance->higher voltage drop across some parts of the copper. the same effect can actually create voltage from current loops, current/resistance of the copper = V.
 
throw 2 different 'grounds' at 2 different voltages and you have a ground loop, it has nothing specifically to do with earth, though earth has its own set of related problems when people use it incorrectly.
 
I think you need to do some reading, even in AC systems in many cases 'ground' is nowhere near the signal, its just a reference voltage half way in between the transformer primaries, or main reservoir caps, which are also floating. actual ground is only used for safety and in some cases AC filtering and not even always.
 
yes toslink has higher jitter as an interface due to the conversion to light and back, than a perfectly executed electrical spdif (which we simply do not find in portable devices, mostly not even home devices), but the jitter on the output of any modern receiver is determined by the receiver and its clock, nothing thats any good uses the recovered spdif clock for audio, so what does it matter? in such a case optical solves more problems than it creates.
 
the fashionable fear of optical, EMI and the trend of thinking i2s is automatically lower jitter are irrational beliefs based on incomplete data/science. i2s CAN be better if over short impedance controlled distances, just as spdif CAN be better if done properly and when looked at in isolation as an interconnect, but if you actually look at the whole system of interconnected devices each has quite rigid tradeoffs. optical has only the one disadvantage, which is taken care of by well controlled and understood devices/designs, the very same ones designed to take care of the issues of electrical spdif.

 

[qusp]

great systems grounding article recommended to me by one of the most knowledgeable guys I know.
 
btw i'm not making a big deal out of the ground loop thing, at these voltages its not a major concern, but its a real effect even in battery powered systems

 

[Astrozombie]

All in one! I don't want to carry around a brick, i've already owned a PSP!

 

[shotgunshane]

All in one! I don't want to carry around a brick, i've already owned a PSP!

Then I have good news for you: the market is absolutley littered with all in ones. Happy shopping. A transport only in portable doesn't really exist, except for a little dot that you can't buy yet. A couple of choices in portable audio would be good for the community and hobby.

 

[stozzer123]

Quote:

Then I have good news for you: the market is absolutely littered with all in ones. Happy shopping. A transport only in portable doesn't really exist, except for a little dot that you can't buy yet. A couple of choices in portable audio would be good for the community and hobby.

Shane please list to me all the current all in one options on the market that allow you to bypass the dac and amp section as is the point of the thread.  I would say absolutely littered is a gross over exaggeration .

 

[shotgunshane]

I didn't take it that's what he meant. I think he and the majority of people just want a player with its own dac and amp section. Hearing they don't want bricks means to me they don't care for digital out, which the market is already littered with. Indeed, all in ones with digital out are limited and extremely expensive, so an all in one with digital out and is affordable means compromise.

 

[goodvibes]

Quote:

floating ground means.... well..... floating ground, doesnt mean theres NO ground and in respect to portable it most certainly doesnt mean no voltage. When 2 interconnected devices with a shared ground such as with electrical spdif (without transformers) are floating? no they arent; a difference in potential between the 2 ground references (usually in the MIDDLE of the supply voltage, so battery VCC/2) creates a loop.
 
you can even have 'ground' loops in the one device with a single ground, created by the resistance of the ground plane, higher currents in some places on the plane and ohms law means there is higher resistance->higher voltage drop across some parts of the copper. the same effect can actually create voltage from current loops, current/resistance of the copper = V.
 
throw 2 different 'grounds' at 2 different voltages and you have a ground loop, it has nothing specifically to do with earth, though earth has its own set of related problems when people use it incorrectly.
 
I think you need to do some reading, even in AC systems in many cases 'ground' is nowhere near the signal, its just a reference voltage half way in between the transformer primaries, or main reservoir caps, which are also floating. actual ground is only used for safety and in some cases AC filtering and not even always.
 
yes toslink has higher jitter as an interface due to the conversion to light and back, than a perfectly executed electrical spdif (which we simply do not find in portable devices, mostly not even home devices), but the jitter on the output of any modern receiver is determined by the receiver and its clock, nothing thats any good uses the recovered spdif clock for audio, so what does it matter? in such a case optical solves more problems than it creates.
 
the fashionable fear of optical, EMI and the trend of thinking i2s is automatically lower jitter are irrational beliefs based on incomplete data/science. i2s CAN be better if over short impedance controlled distances, just as spdif CAN be better if done properly and when looked at in isolation as an interconnect, but if you actually look at the whole system of interconnected devices each has quite rigid tradeoffs. optical has only the one disadvantage, which is taken care of by well controlled and understood devices/designs, the very same ones designed to take care of the issues of electrical spdif.

You got the ground loop thing wrong and the link backs that up. Simply put, one ground connection between components can't create a loop as is the case when one is floating. There is nowhere to derive a difference in the ground potential. Without another reference to differentiate their potential, a floating ground will not induce any current.
 
I'm not scared of tos. It's easy and convenient. It has just never worked as well for me in use, even with some of the best reclockers out there. The sort also not used in portable kit. That said, perhaps tos is the easy and safe connection as you insist for this format.
 
I never brought up i2s as it has it's own issues without proximity clocking.

 

[qusp]

OT

Spoiler: OT

 
no, no I didnt, 2 grounds (in this case reference voltages, not ground), floating or not, when a circuit is formed and one part is more highly charged than the other, it will seek to equalize charge. by your logic there would be no way for us to send a signal from one floating device to another, or to charge a battery or capacitor from another higher power battery; power any floating device with a transformer/psu that doesnt have an earth ground connection
 
so given earth ground is only in use in many builds for chassis, thus 'ground' is just as floating as a battery, are you saying that no current will flow if one part of a circuit is at a lower potential than the other when they are connected? remember this is 2 circuits joining, not just 2 grounds, there are several paths for the current to flow through the spdif, through capacitive coupling, through parasitic induction, parasitic capacitance and directly.
 
simple example, 2 battery cells, one is more highly charged than the other, both are floating, connect them in parallel does no current flow? this battery example, if under load the current will flow to the load instead, as its at a lower potential than the slightly lower charged battery, but if theres no load it will seek to equalize. you dont get the 100hz hum because its DC, but its still the same phenomenon ie 2 ground references in a connected circuit that exist at different potentials interfering with or simply imposing on each others operation. like I said at these voltages not a big deal, but still a real condition.
 
cars are still prone to ground loops too, floating...
 

 

[goodvibes]

Any balanced amp output connection has a floating ground or even none depending on your point of view and drives unearthed speakers just fine. In 2 pieces of electronics the common ground between the pieces has the same potential (withing cable resistance and ground points), you've simply increased the circuit length.
 
 Last time.

 There is no voltage without a reference point or ground. 2 pieces can have floating grounds and work fine together. Floating ground doesn't mean it doesn't have one it's just not referenced to a central system earth. It's why circuit and chassis ground may not be common which in itself can lead to some noise if not done at the same potential. Take a proper home system for instance. You are looking for only one true earth referenced to signal at a point where the potential will be equal. Generally the preamp or control point where you can star almost everything. Basically all the audio grounds go to one point and the chassis' all ground via the power cables with the only chassis/earth grounded to the audio path in the preamp. You could use the system without it but it's still preferred because it tends to stiffen things up. Unfortunately this type of proper grounding is rarely achieved because as you mix and match you tend to have multiple earths with different potential.
 
We're not talking computer here which tend to be poorly grounded noisy beasts. A specialized audio piece can do better.
 
I found this. It may help. Perhaps you don't get what I'm trying to convey or I'm just not conveying that well. http://www.aspowertechnologies.com/resources/pdf/Floating%20Output.pdf
 
I'm done. Live long and prosper.

 

[lee730]

I think it would be sweet if they could offer a limited production of both. They make money on both products and I'd be much more apt to just by the transport.