[Rossliew]

  Transducer is always first. With the Stax 007 and 009, there seems to be a significantly larger performance gap between the decent amplifiers and the very good ones, compared to my experience with dynamic headphones. So I place amp 2nd in the context of 007/009. These days there are (finally) some very good DACs at very reasonable prices (we've come a long ways since the Bel Canto DAC 2 and Benchmark DAC 1 days), and thus I like the result of putting more money into a 009 and a better amp. If you hear garbage from your source with the 009 and a good amp, then you need to ditch that source -- the 009 is highly resolving but also pretty damn musical; it's not a nightmare to match to sources (I would advise against pairing with bright gear, though).
 

I currently have an 007 Mk II and a KGST sourced from a Gungnir. Would you advise I upgrade to a 009 or a better DAC or maybe a KGSSHV? I listen to mostly metal, which for all intents and purposes, are generally not recorded hi res But they sound excellent with my current set-up.

 

[FrankCooter]

   
What are your initial thoughts Frank? I've spent a lot more time with the 009s recently and I can't help but feel that something is missing, almost a literal dead spot in the bass region. This is compared to the 007s.
 
Are you thinking of doing another DHT affair for the 009s? In general I'm interested in how you make decisions on what tubes to use.

 
The 009's are the most resolving, detailed, and precise headphones I've ever had in my system. I will probably buy a pair of my own at some point. That said, I find them somewhat of a disappointment. I totally agree with you about the deficient bass compared to the 007. They are also too hot on top for my tastes. The soundstage is unremarkable, and at least subjectively, there seems to be a bit of flatness in the mids, particularly noticeable with female vocals. I want everything the 009 has, but in addition I want the the bass , impact , and midrange tonality of the LCD-3, plus the openess and soundstage of the K1000 or HD-800.  All this is completely subjective of course, and my tastes (basically high-end vintage analog) are very much a minority position within this forum. I would have liked to have seen a Stax flagship modeled more on the original Omega or the HE-90. A bit less neutral perhaps, but hopefully a bit more warm and musical. I think it's no accident that most of the top-tier Stax enthusiasts music tastes seem to run to classical or jazz. Wanking aside, we're living in a golden age of headphone development. It's an exiting time to be a headphone enthusiast. When I first started, it was pretty much the Grado RS-1 and Sennheiser HD600 ( both of which I owned), and neither was comparable to any of today's flagships.
 
I'm currently building another DHT (845) amp for the 009's. This amp  will go through a series of evolutions and will probably be my "swan song" before I ride off into the sunset. Since becoming involved in HF, I've probably built 50 different tube headphone amps (most of which never saw the light of day).  I like to use unusual, and often little known tubes. Mostly it doesn't work, but every once in a while you discover a hidden gem. I leave it to others to work with EL34's, 6SN7's, and 300B's.
 
The 845 (and eventually the GM70) are by far my favorite output tubes for the kind of electrostatic amps I build. Take a look at the plate curves for the 845. No other even remotely practical tube comes close to it's ability to swing the huge linear voltage required for electrostatics.

 

[gilency]

I happen to think DAC's are the least important in the chain.
Transducer first, amplifier second; DACs, they are more similar than not.

 

[eric65]

   
The 009's are the most resolving, detailed, and precise headphones I've ever had in my system. I will probably buy a pair of my own at some point. That said, I find them somewhat of a disappointment. I totally agree with you about the deficient bass compared to the 007. They are also too hot on top for my tastes. The soundstage is unremarkable, and at least subjectively, there seems to be a bit of flatness in the mids, particularly noticeable with female vocals. I want everything the 009 has, but in addition I want the the bass , impact , and midrange tonality of the LCD-3, plus the openess and soundstage of the K1000 or HD-800.  All this is completely subjective of course, and my tastes (basically high-end vintage analog) are very much a minority position within this forum. I would have liked to have seen a Stax flagship modeled more on the original Omega or the HE-90. A bit less neutral perhaps, but hopefully a bit more warm and musical. I think it's no accident that most of the top-tier Stax enthusiasts music tastes seem to run to classical or jazz. Wanking aside, we're living in a golden age of headphone development. It's an exiting time to be a headphone enthusiast. When I first started, it was pretty much the Grado RS-1 and Sennheiser HD600 ( both of which I owned), and neither was comparable to any of today's flagships.
 
I'm currently building another DHT (845) amp for the 009's. This amp  will go through a series of evolutions and will probably be my "swan song" before I ride off into the sunset. Since becoming involved in HF, I've probably built 50 different tube headphone amps (most of which never saw the light of day).  I like to use unusual, and often little known tubes. Mostly it doesn't work, but every once in a while you discover a hidden gem. I leave it to others to work with EL34's, 6SN7's, and 300B's.
 
The 845 (and eventually the GM70) are by far my favorite output tubes for the kind of electrostatic amps I build. Take a look at the plate curves for the 845. No other even remotely practical tube comes close to it's ability to swing the huge linear voltage required for electrostatics.

 
Hi Franck (if you allow)
 
I completely agree with your analysis on the headphones that you have listened to (007; 009 and LCD-3)
 
Build a specific amplifier for the 009 might be a good idea to improve the two weaknesses of the 009: lack of bass and impact in the low; flatness of the midrange lacking wealth and "sex appeal".
 
Recently I wrote to a member of Head-Fi this little message regarding the headphones you talk about
" Hi Dave, and thank you for your appreciation of the 009 with very good amps produced by KG.
 009 is exceptional and, in my opinion, much better than the 007 mk1 and mk2; also better than the HD800 and very much higher than the HD-600.
 I recently discovered the LCD3-F and I was very pleasantly surprised by the quality of this headphones with my audio system, particularly by using the mode OTL of my amplifier. Even if it is a little less fine, slower, less accurate and less neutral than the 009, it brings two things that do not bring enough the 009: a midrange mesmerizing, and a real impact in the lower (more than the level) very pleasant to give rhythm and life.
Both headphones are complementary and I have just as much fun to listen to one another (two different and complementary pleasures).
Otherwise, my source is also very good (very analog) and unfortunately also very expensive (dac Audiomat Maestro reference (10 K Euros) + CD drive Audiomat D1 (6 K Euros) ; my two favorite headphones perfectly exploit the all dynamic, nuances and capabilities such a source. "
 
In my opinion, failing to find the perfect headphones, bringing together the best of the 009 (precision and fineness) LCD3-F (sumptuousness of the medium, and impact in the low) and HD-800 (width of the sound stage), the best choice is the solution to keep at least this two headphones (009 and LCD3-F) (perfectly complementary) by choosing either two specific amplifiers (without compromise?) for each of these headphones, or find a versatile amplifier (therefore inevitably with compromises) with a very good synergy with these two headphones.
(nb: one exist, now: link: http://www.head-fi.org/t/745270/audiovalve-luminare-an-universal-headphone-amp-with-three-operating-modes-low-impedance-high-impedance-otl-and-stax/150#post_11332412)
 
Eric

 

[arnaud]

There's a thread already for you Eric...

 

[eric65]

Here, it is matter of the Stax 009, LCD3 (F) (in comparison) and an amplifier adapted to the peculiarities of the 009.

I give my opinion. That's it.
 
You do not like these two headphones ?

 

[scottiebabie]

 
I'm currently building another DHT (845) amp for the 009's. This amp  will go through a series of evolutions and will probably be my "swan song" before I ride off into the sunset. 

 
frank im betting your swansong amp will be a beast & a thing of beauty! i too am working my way up to a 009. wish i have the knowledge & diy skills to do something close to the work of art u come up with

 

[astrostar59]

Don't hear that sorry. My 009s with the KGSShv kicks hard in the bass. I have no complaints anywhere in the spectrum. I would think folk who find the 009s lacking anywhere need to look at the amp or DAC.

 

[eric65]

Listen in comparison the 009 and the LCD-3F headphones, with a good amp and a good dac, and you will immediately understand what we are talking.

 

[astrostar59]

Eric, try a tubed NOS DAC with the KGSShv or BHSE and the 009s. It has the midrange magic you might be missing in your setup? I really can't hear any loss
anywhere, I am sorry to disagree with you. But that is why this hobby is so great.
 
I have had many many Delta-Sigma DACs and almost stopped listening to music, finding the digital sound too irritating and plastic. A tubed DAC with the 009s is a match made in heaven - trust me. The 009 is very fast and transparent, but hooked up to a smooth and less 'Hifi' (plastic) DAC and it moved up to heaven level. My DAC used Tungsol 5687 New Old Stock valves and C-Core output transformers, and I run it direct to my KGSShv i.e. no pre-amp. I haven't heard anything better yet. True, I haven't heard the LCD3-3F, but I have heard the LCD2 and it wasn't for me. It struck me as a slower version of the 007 sound, muddy bass and lazy.

 

[eric65]

My 16 K EUR Dac + Drive Audiomat is comparable to that as the very good dac TotalDac D1 Dual; maybe a little less defined, but also "analog " if not even more. 
The energy released in the bass is great, especially with the LCD-3F (with more impact).

 With my audio system, nothing muddy in the reproduction of the bass, both with the 009 and the LCD-3F. Bass faster but more reserved with the 009; strong bass with more impact with the LCD3-F (not including the splendor of the midrange, mesmerizing of the LCD3-F).

 

[negura]

  Eric, try a tubed NOS DAC with the KGSShv or BHSE and the 009s. It has the midrange magic you might be missing in your setup? I really can't hear any loss
anywhere, I am sorry to disagree with you. But that is why this hobby is so great.
 
I have had many many Delta-Sigma DACs and almost stopped listening to music, finding the digital sound too irritating and plastic. A tubed DAC with the 009s is a match made in heaven - trust me. The 009 is very fast and transparent, but hooked up to a smooth and less 'Hifi' (plastic) DAC and it moved up to heaven level. My DAC used Tungsol 5687 New Old Stock valves and C-Core output transformers, and I run it direct to my KGSShv i.e. no pre-amp. I haven't heard anything better yet. True, I haven't heard the LCD3-3F, but I have heard the LCD2 and it wasn't for me. It struck me as a slower version of the 007 sound, muddy bass and lazy.

 
The planars also benefit something like an R2R DAC. I don't disagree with you, especially having a very similar KGSSHV to yours at home. Yes it does kick the 009s more into shape in the bass and treble regions, with some very organic mids. That said, there's still a gap to the planar sound weight that the 009 does not fill, and I will be surprised if it ever will whatever is thrown at it. That's not to say they are not technically better than headphones like the LCD-3Fs. At least based on what I am hearing right now

 

[pataburd]

How do the LCD-3F do in the upper frequencies?  Rolled off, like the LCD-2.2?  
If I had to choose, I would trade that last bit of LF extension for that last bit of HF extension.
One headfier I know admitted to preferring the LCD-3F, w/Moon Audio Silver Dragon V3 cable, to the SR-009.

 

[negura]

  How do the LCD-3F do in the upper frequencies?  Rolled off, like the LCD-2.2?  
If I had to choose, I would trade that last bit of LF extension for that last bit of HF extension.

 
Treble and soundstage are some of the significant "fixes" on the new version. The mids no longer seem scooped out vs 3C. It's no Stax treble, but it's clearly better than previous LCD-numbers. It no longer seems to take me half a day to "forget" how the 009s sound so I can listen to the 3s. I actually like the 3Fs, but will see how long the fun lasts.

 

[astrostar59]

  How do the LCD-3F do in the upper frequencies?  Rolled off, like the LCD-2.2?  
If I had to choose, I would trade that last bit of LF extension for that last bit of HF extension.

YES me too! Lets face it, detail and ambiance makes you think you are 'there' bass boom or louder bass makes you think you are in the lava lounge hearing the main system through the walls.
 
Seriously, I used to think the 007s had better bass, but only for a day or so of owning the 009s. The bass on the 007s was slower and with a mid bass hump. Also the treble had a roll off above say 12k which emphasised the bass. And these aspects were more forgiving of a detailed or bright sounding DAC or brighter (poor) recordings. If I jump back to the 007s from the 009s, the bass on the 009s has more depth (3D), it's deeper (lower Hz response) and it is more detailed and textured. Plus it is faster. I think the faster aspect probably fools some to think it is curtailed. The 007s were slower and had 'bass lag' thus gave the impression of more weight and volume of the bass.
 
Sorry, this is hard to describe. But to get such detail and speed in all registers is an amazing feat in my book. I have stopped looking. The 009 gives me the classic Stax detail and speed and sensitivity PLUS bass wallop, unlike the 507 and the older Lambda ranges. Not sure how Stax can improve it really. 
 
Even though the 009s are more sensitive (need less juice from the amplifier) they still need power reserve to perform and sound dynamic and not compressed, like any headphone or speaker does. The more powerful (ticking over) the amplifier is at normal volumes the better is does in this aspect. My SRM-717 is ok, but very quickly you realise it is at the limit and compressing the dynamics, even with the 009s. The bass looses a lot of impact and slam.