[JimL11]

I know that, i just hoped for a tube amp that is under 5k and is on the level of bhse, looks i have to settle with a solid state.

If you can DIY, there are a couple choices. Kevin Gilmore's Megatron is a tube design (with solid state current sources) which is at the BHSE level. My SRX Plus (based on the Stax SRX circuit with solid state current sources) design is a step below the BHSE but much cheaper and easier to build.

 

[Whitigir]

KG Grounded Grid is a very good amp

 

[Whitigir]

It's not just what people are asking for them, it's what they are actually selling for. Used BHSEs sell at close to their new price. WES doesn't.

That is understandable, BHSE new unit needs months to build, and it is not a mass produced product. Together with a proven solid performance, and that is that

 

[astrostar59]

Stax T8000
Returning to this subject, I was reading some 'not so hot' feedback over at the other place on the sound of this amp. In my demo at Can-Jam last week, I was underwhelmed. It seems to my ears a slight jump above my old 717 amp, way behind my next amp the KGSShv off-board, and my current amp the Carbon. Or the BHSE which I have heard many times and at the show as well. They are on another planet IMO. This is a bit disappointing. I was hoping this amp would promote what the 009 or the 007s are capable of to the masses (in shop demo's), as opposed to the 'in crowd' on the forums. But then again, maybe Stax are a small company still and don't want more sale volumes? But regardless, it seems a lost opportunity to me and I also think it is too pricy for the sound on offer.

 

[Whitigir]

I have no doubt that any of the current high-end KG amplifiers are on another planet. , technically speaking aside, the performances I can hear from it is another world

 

[JimL11]

KG Grounded Grid is a very good amp

True, but it is more of a hybrid approach, with solid state front end and tube outputs. The Megatron and SRX Plus use tubes as the amplifying devices all the way through, but with solid state support (current sources and loads).

That is understandable, BHSE new unit needs months to build, and it is not a mass produced product. Together with a proven solid performance, and that is that

Well, the demand for the BHSE exceeds the supply in all likelihood, which is a contributing factor. I'm not sure that I would consider the WES mass produced, given its price - it's a niche product. But more than that, the used price is a also comment on the sound quality.

 

[Whitigir]

BHSE has solid state input and tube output just similar to GG generally speaking, and more hybrid. Only Megatron and T2 has both tubes in-out

 

[astrostar59]

BHSE has solid state input and tube output just similar to GG generally speaking, and more hybrid. Only Megatron and T2 has both tubes in-out

Dunno actually. JimL will know, but I thought the T2 had some Fets in the gain stage as well as those EL34s? A long bank of them. Unless they are voltage regulators?

On the WES being mass market, I am not sure. Woo Audio is quite a small company and I bet they haven't sold that many WES, though that is purely guesswork. What I did see was lots of comparisons and excitement over that amp a few years back on here, but seemingly many have now sold them and moved on. It used to be compared on a BHSE level, how things change....

 

[Whitigir]

Dunno actually. JimL will know, but I thought the T2 had some Fets in the gain stage as well as those EL34s? A long back of them. Unless they are voltage regulators?

That is true when you dig in deep, Megatron is truly a Tubes galore. Anyways, why do I like GG so much ? The idea is because it was hybrid. The speed and low Harmonic Distortions from input carrying upto the front end, but with tubes output stages to once again gain some second Harmonic distortions. This combinations would be of a high fidelity+tubes magics together.

Basically, I love the Carbon, but I wanted some more fluidity of tubes magic, and I am glad Kevin Gilmore made it happened. I don't know if you remember, I couldn't deal with 009 and Carbon at 18mA...let's alone 20mA.....

Now, I always know that theory is different than real application....so I built the GG, and it did surprise me by "a lot!" It is everything from theory and into the real application itself. That is why when speaking of Grounded Grid, you are essentially talking about Carbon with tubes magic

 

[astrostar59]

I agree Whitigir, a hybrid amp and indeed a hybrid system can work so well.

For example, I used to be all SS in my speaker system, with big MF 370 power amps for my Kef 107 speakers. It was nice, but until I got a tube pre-amp it was not quite right for my tastes. Fast forward, I now have no pre-amp as gone passive, but do use a tubed DAC feeding my SS power amp and horn speakers, or my Carbon and 009s. So I am still on hybrid territory, there is something in it IMO. In speaker systems having all tube power amps can be expensive to get right, as in most speakers nowadays are very inefficient and can have wild impedance curves. And getting fast and earth shattering sub bass seems a strength of big SS amps I have found, though not in all cases. Usually as budgets go higher, tubes power amps can do some amazing things with sub bass control as well as everything else. But the speaker has to be matched to get the most out of what is on offer IMO.

In HPs we don't really have such huge demands for sub bass / raw power. And tubes do something special especially with timbre and vocals for example.

 

[Whitigir]

I agree Whitigir, a hybrid amp and indeed a hybrid system can work so well.

For example, I used to be all SS in my speaker system, with big MF 370 power amps for my Kef 107 speakers. It was nice, but until I got a tube pre-amp it was not quite right for my tastes. Fast forward, I now have no pre-amp as gone passive, but do use a tubed DAC feeding my SS power amp and horn speakers, or my Carbon and 009s. So I am still on hybrid territory, there is something in it IMO. In speaker systems having all tube power amps can be expensive to get right, as in most speakers nowadays are very inefficient and can have wild impedance curves. And getting fast and earth shattering sub bass seems a strength of big SS amps I have found, though not in all cases. Usually as budgets go higher, tubes power amps can do some amazing things with sub bass control as well as everything else. But the speaker has to be matched to get the most out of what is on offer IMO.

In HPs we don't really have such huge demands for sub bass / raw power. And tubes do something special especially with timbre and vocals for example.

You just spoke the whole "magic about hybrid breed". Excellent speech !!

 

[JimL11]

Stax T8000
Returning to this subject, I was reading some 'not so hot' feedback over at the other place on the sound of this amp. In my demo at Can-Jam last week, I was underwhelmed. It seems to my ears a slight jump above my old 717 amp, way behind my next amp the KGSShv off-board, and my current amp the Carbon. Or the BHSE which I have heard many times and at the show as well. They are on another planet IMO. This is a bit disappointing. I was hoping this amp would promote what the 009 or the 007s are capable of to the masses (in shop demo's), as opposed to the 'in crowd' on the forums. But then again, maybe Stax are a small company still and don't want more sale volumes? But regardless, it seems a lost opportunity to me and I also think it is too pricy for the sound on offer.

Stax does seem to be somewhat insular - they don't seem to have been paying much attention to what is going on in the rest of the world. As Dr. Gilmore has pointed out, they actually went backwards from the 727's current source loaded driver stage to the 717's resistor loaded stage. The current source in the output stage isn't really great either - I assume it was done that way for balance with the output devices. It seems like they forgot the primary point of the exercise, which was to design a better sounding amplifier, in favor of secondary features like an auxiliary slot and a servo.

 

[JimL11]

BHSE has solid state input and tube output just similar to GG generally speaking, and more hybrid. Only Megatron and T2 has both tubes in-out

Yes, the T2 is tube input and tube output, but the audio signal passes through a whole bunch of solid state circuitry in between, so it is still a hybrid circuit. The Megatron uses tubes for signal handling from input to output, as does the SRX Plus. You can trace the signal path from input to output without passing through any transistors. The downside to using only tubes for signal handling is that there is capacitor coupling between stages in both the Megatron and SRX Plus. There are solid state devices in both, but only as current sources/loads. To make an analogy, the signal current "bounces off" the current sources/loads but doesn't transverse through them.

 

[bmichels]

BHSE has solid state input and tube output just similar to GG generally speaking, and more hybrid. Only Megatron and T2 has both tubes in-out

Next HeadAmp Electrostatic amp that will top the BHSE will be "all tubes" --> My BHSE might be for sale next year ....

 

[Whitigir]

Next HeadAmp Electrostatic amp that will top the BHSE will be "all tubes" --> My BHSE might be for sale next year ....

All tubes, why not do Megatron ?