[Jones Bob]

The SR-003 plugged in a KG amp is a surprisingly good sounding HP too.

 

[Music Alchemist]

  It's actually two advantages that have the potential to be disadvantages, soundstage and resolution.
 
On some recordings it unnaturally separates instruments.
 
On other recordings it resolves too much, revealing things you don't want to hear, and can almost make a recording unlistenable. Things like peaks in volume can go staticy, most likely came out of the studio and never tested with speakers that resolved like the 009s, so they missed it. Again, because of resolution, apart from mixing/mastering defects, you can simply hear things that were never intended to be heard.
 
A really good example is solo piano works (which I listen to quite often). Excuse my laymans terminology, but it's the felt part hitting inside the piano.
Avril 14th by Aphex Twin intentionally exaggerates this, if you want to know what I'm talking about. That sound shouldn't be heard in a normal piano recording.

 
Thanks for offering your perspective.
 
Personally, I'm not much of a fan of the HD 800. I auditioned it on a MOON Neo 430HA and also briefly on a Sennheiser HDVD 800. Both amp/DACs sounded the same to me. I listened for hours using my own test tracks in most genres. My main problem with the HD 800 is brightness and harshness. I was in physical pain whenever there was high frequency content in the music. Never in real life do instruments have this type of artificial brightness and harshness. As for digital instruments, well, very few producers would be so incompetent as to make certain high frequencies sound as overly emphasized as the HD 800 makes them sound. In fact, on one STAX system I owned in the past, I turned the treble knob all the way up on the speaker amp I was using to drive it with, and it still wasn't as painfully bright and harsh as the HD 800 was. I would definitely have to use EQ, modifications, and/or perhaps even a warm tube amp to make the HD 800 tolerable for me. Aside from that, it sounded excellent, though it was missing a bit of mid-range and the bass was on the weak side. I read about how with some amps, the bass can be stronger. Not sure how that works, because the amps I used were extremely powerful.
 
The STAX SR-207 (which I owned) is easily more neutral than the HD 800. (I can provide an in-depth analysis of the measurements upon request.) Doesn't have any of the frequency response issues the HD 800 does. More importantly, the SR-207 sounded far more transparent to me. What it gave up on technicalities was hardly noticeable, simply because it sounded so much more realistic. I liked the SR-207 far, far more than the HD 800 with virtually all music.
 
Anyway, all headphones can benefit from EQ, modifications, and so on. From my experience, more people say the SR-009 has the best resolution, so it would be interesting to compare them under more equal conditions, ie after both headphones have been equalized to have a frequency response as close to neutral as possible. I have no problem with resolution. I want to get as close as I can to hearing everything that is in the recording, but without mistaking artificial detail for resolution. (I'm not necessarily implying that the HD 800 is not more resolving, though; just that it has problems in the FR that can distract from that.)
 
I see that you also have the JVC HA-SZ2000. What a coincidence! I already got the HA-M55X in order to use its pads for the SZ2000. Looks like you could be a full-time audiophile / part-time basshead like me!

 

[comzee]

   
[...]
Looks like you could be a full-time audiophile / part-time basshead like me!

Not to offend, but the SZ2000 are the worst headphones I've ever listened to. I bought them based on the massive bass headphones thread here on Head-fi, listened to them for about 4-5 hours total, I've owned them for over a year. I bought the upgraded ear pads for them too. It's like putting a wool blanket over your eyes.... I mean I love bass that's why I bought them. But yea....

I previously owned a pair of Denon D1100 (One of their models before they sold out) and those were amazing for bass.
 
As far as the remarks on the HD800s, I agree with all your assessments, although I think you had a bad beat with them. The HDVD specifically (even though it's made by Sennheiser) is a trash amp for them. Waaaay to bright.
 
Also, the HD800 are hyper finicky. Amp+source makes such a massive difference.
For example, for a long time I used a PCM5102 dac implementation with them, so bad.
R2R dacs with the hd800 are magic, simply put. Tube amps for the HD800 are magic, simply put.
 
I feed mine through my Maser7 + WA7 tube amp, not an ounce of sharpness or fatigue.
It doesn't hurt that I've burned them in forever, I think they really started to lose the harshness around 500+ hours of use.
 
Just so I don't derail this STAX thread, a bit more comparison.
Logically, estat drivers wouldn't need the same level of burn in as dynamic drivers, if at all. So what you hear is what you get right out of the box.
 
Right now, my 009s are brighter (but not fatiguing) to my 800s.
It's funny actually, everybody online says the 800s are clinical, I find this to be much truer of the 009s.
I mean, HDVD + delta-sigma dac + low burn in 800s sound like torture.

 

[Music Alchemist]

  Not to offend, but the SZ2000 are the worst headphones I've ever listened to. I bought them based on the massive bass headphones thread here on Head-fi, listened to them for about 4-5 hours total, I've owned them for over a year. I bought the upgraded ear pads for them too. It's like putting a wool blanket over your eyes.... I mean I love bass that's why I bought them. But yea....

I previously owned a pair of Denon D1100 (One of their models before they sold out) and those were amazing for bass.
 
As far as the remarks on the HD800s, I agree with all your assessments, although I think you had a bad beat with them. The HDVD specifically (even though it's made by Sennheiser) is a trash amp for them. Waaaay to bright.
 
Also, the HD800 are hyper finicky. Amp+source makes such a massive difference.
For example, for a long time I used a PCM5102 dac implementation with them, so bad.
R2R dacs with the hd800 are magic, simply put. Tube amps for the HD800 are magic, simply put.
 
I feed mine through my Maser7 + WA7 tube amp, not an ounce of sharpness or fatigue.
It doesn't hurt that I've burned them in forever, I think they really started to lose the harshness around 500+ hours of use.
 
Just so I don't derail this STAX thread, a bit more comparison.
Logically, estat drivers wouldn't need the same level of burn in as dynamic drivers, if at all. So what you hear is what you get right out of the box.
 
Right now, my 009s are brighter (but not fatiguing) to my 800s.
It's funny actually, everybody online says the 800s are clinical, I find this to be much truer of the 009s.
I mean, HDVD + delta-sigma dac + low burn in 800s sound like torture.

 
Even the most dedicated SZ2000 owners (actually, especially them) can tell you that it's worthless without EQ. Most of them at least boost the bass, but with more pinpoint EQ, it can improve the overall sound beyond just having ultimate bass impact.
 
Well yeah, of course the SR-009 from a neutral-ish solid-state amp is going to be brighter than the HD 800 from a warm tube amp. You'd have to use neutral electronics to properly compare the stock tuning of the headphones themselves. (And if you want to test their absolute capabilities, you'd then have to get into EQ, mods, and so on.) But it's certainly a good thing that the HD 800 can improve so much from certain components.

 

[sensui123]

Yeah.  I can't give any real feedback to STAX but I'll comment on what I know about the HD800.  Once upon a time I had a Schiit Mjolnir/Gungnir combo and ran the HD800 with that....was pretty horrified.  I shelfed my HD800 into the closet and it never saw the light of day until I sold off the Schiit stuff and moved on to other sources and amps.  Right now the HD800 is paried with the DNA Stratus and I used to (moved the Hex to work, still waiting for replacement @ home) listen to it with a Metrum Hex.....this sounds REALLY great.  Definitely a beast that can be tamed and the best part of it is, the analytical parts are all there still for the details.  I did also go with a pure OCC Copper cable as well for the HD800 and that actually did seem to help also to my surprise (I was a real skeptic on this one).  I enjoy the HD800 out of the Liquid Glass amp also but the favorite pairing by far is with the DNA stratus....it's as if that amp is made for that headphone imo.

 

[Jodet]

  Yeah.  I can't give any real feedback to STAX but I'll comment on what I know about the HD800.  Once upon a time I had a Schiit Mjolnir/Gungnir combo and ran the HD800 with that....was pretty horrified.  I shelfed my HD800 into the closet and it never saw the light of day until I sold off the Schiit stuff and moved on to other sources and amps.  Right now the HD800 is paried with the DNA Stratus and I used to (moved the Hex to work, still waiting for replacement @ home) listen to it with a Metrum Hex.....this sounds REALLY great.  Definitely a beast that can be tamed and the best part of it is, the analytical parts are all there still for the details.  I did also go with a pure OCC Copper cable as well for the HD800 and that actually did seem to help also to my surprise (I was a real skeptic on this one).  I enjoy the HD800 out of the Liquid Glass amp also but the favorite pairing by far is with the DNA stratus....it's as if that amp is made for that headphone imo.

 
I see the DNA Stratus is $2700 now.   Good God.   Didn't it used to be under $1500????  

 

[sensui123]

   
I see the DNA Stratus is $2700 now.   Good God.   Didn't it used to be under $1500????  

 
Not to my knowledge....maybe you're thinking of the Sonnett?  Donald actually is working on a refined version of the Stratus called the Solaris for next year.....supposed to be $6k hah.  I'm lucky I'm close to him so that's definitely something I'd have to audition to see the improvements over the Stratus.

 

[Jodet]

   
Not to my knowledge....maybe you're thinking of the Sonnett?  Donald actually is working on a refined version of the Stratus called the Solaris for next year.....supposed to be $6k hah.  I'm lucky I'm close to him so that's definitely something I'd have to audition to see the improvements over the Stratus.

 
The Sonnett at $1500 gives way to $2700 which gives way to $6k?  
 
Yikes.   Donald thinks very highly of his gear.   I miss the days when $1500 was an expensive headphone amp.  

 

[Music Alchemist]

Glad I'm focusing totally on electrostats now when it comes to high-end stuff. Otherwise, it would be even more costly to build separate "ultimate" systems.

 

[comzee]

  I enjoy the HD800 out of the Liquid Glass amp also but the favorite pairing by far is with the DNA stratus....it's as if that amp is made for that headphone imo.

Yea, tubes amps really are what's good for it. Tyll said it best, the HD800+good amp is a beast setup, if you really want the 10% more, you'll have to pay 3x more. Think he mentioned this in his Bigsound 2015.
 
I mean, he1000 for $3k, lcd-4 for $4k, 009 for $4.6k (ignoring PJ).
Price versus performance out the door.
 
HD800 is not only the best headphones for $1500, it really stands its own against anything out there.
I think in these high end forums they're simply underrated.
 
HD800 $1.5k + Good source $1k + Good amp $1k = world class system for roughly $3.5k.
 
Or you could spend $2.3k for dac + $3-4k for an amp + $3k for 009, and get maybe 10% overall better quality, for roughly $9k, yea... If you're rich it's all fun and games, otherwise I hold more respect for the HD800 then anything out there.

 

[sensui123]

Yeah....I realized the potential of the HD800 through some respected head fi'ers (well by me anyway lol) opinions and started to follow suit because I didn't want it to go to waste.  The first step was the cable....went with the Copper Venom from Toxic Cable and thought skeptical...I noticed an immediate difference in the overall tonality of the headphone on the Mjolnir.  Still was't enough though and I knew I had to change up my gear in a major way to take advantage of things.  That's when I fell in love with the Metrum dacs for their smooth/easy listening signature and funded the Liquid Glass to roll different tubes for the HD800.  The Stratus was a blind buy (never heard but one head fi'er that's very critical swore by it with his hd800) but it paid off big time and Donald's been a gentleman to deal with when we met up.  My mother inlaw that knows nothing about this gear listened to the HD800+Stratus+Hex combo for hours on a recliner comfortably so I think it's safe to say I've tamed that beast.  
The recent expenses of totl headphones like Abyss and LCD-4 almost sold me....but the more impressions I read the more I was let down and decided to follow the electrostat rabbit hole like the rest of you.  Might as well if you're spending that kind of $$ and I'm always down for new experiences.  I'd hate to pay that much $$ on the Abyss or LCD-4 to only get a 5% increase in enjoyment over my current headphones......
Please continue your discussions, I'll be quietly reading and learning whatever I can.  Thanks!

 

[preproman]

  Yea, tubes amps really are what's good for it. Tyll said it best, the HD800+good amp is a beast setup, if you really want the 10% more, you'll have to pay 3x more. Think he mentioned this in his Bigsound 2015.
 
I mean, he1000 for $3k, lcd-4 for $4k, 009 for $4.6k (ignoring PJ).
Price versus performance out the door.
 
HD800 is not only the best headphones for $1500, it really stands its own against anything out there.
I think in these high end forums they're simply underrated.
 
HD800 $1.5k + Good source $1k + Good amp $1k = world class system for roughly $3.5k.
 
Or you could spend $2.3k for dac + $3-4k for an amp + $3k for 009, and get maybe 10% overall better quality, for roughly $9k, yea... If you're rich it's all fun and games, otherwise I hold more respect for the HD800 then anything out there.

 
Yes, the HD800 is a real bargain at it's price point.  However, it doesn't seem fair to say the HD800 + a $1K source + $1K for an amp is a world class system?  Surely that system won't be considered world class.
 
Then you give the 009s a DAC that cost $2.3K - why?  Sure the amp will cost you more.  However, for a would class system both the HD800 and the 009 will require an amp that cost more than $1K for sure.  So the cost is really between the "cans" 

 

[nassq8]

  Yea, tubes amps really are what's good for it. Tyll said it best, the HD800+good amp is a beast setup, if you really want the 10% more, you'll have to pay 3x more. Think he mentioned this in his Bigsound 2015.
 
I mean, he1000 for $3k, lcd-4 for $4k, 009 for $4.6k (ignoring PJ).
Price versus performance out the door.
 
HD800 is not only the best headphones for $1500, it really stands its own against anything out there.
I think in these high end forums they're simply underrated.
 
HD800 $1.5k + Good source $1k + Good amp $1k = world class system for roughly $3.5k.
 
Or you could spend $2.3k for dac + $3-4k for an amp + $3k for 009, and get maybe 10% overall better quality, for roughly $9k, yea... If you're rich it's all fun and games, otherwise I hold more respect for the HD800 then anything out there.

 
Sure as long as your disposable income is allowing, audiophile quest will never end. Otherwise, this game can end at a relatively cheaper level, for me at least:
 
$1600 = Mr. Alpha prime/HE-400 + HiFi-M8 LX 
 
At such price,  a respectable level of audiophile experience for both open and close worlds can be achieved.

 

[purk]

  Yea, tubes amps really are what's good for it. Tyll said it best, the HD800+good amp is a beast setup, if you really want the 10% more, you'll have to pay 3x more. Think he mentioned this in his Bigsound 2015.
 
I mean, he1000 for $3k, lcd-4 for $4k, 009 for $4.6k (ignoring PJ).
Price versus performance out the door.
 
HD800 is not only the best headphones for $1500, it really stands its own against anything out there.
I think in these high end forums they're simply underrated.
 
HD800 $1.5k + Good source $1k + Good amp $1k = world class system for roughly $3.5k.
 
Or you could spend $2.3k for dac + $3-4k for an amp + $3k for 009, and get maybe 10% overall better quality, for roughly $9k, yea... If you're rich it's all fun and games, otherwise I hold more respect for the HD800 then anything out there.

I personally think that you need a better amp than that before the HD800 can start competing with the SR009.  However, if you know what you are looking for then you can buy a used flagship amp from yesteryear for around $1.5K that make the HD800 really shine.
Also, you don't really need to spend $3-4K to amp the SR009.  The KGST is pretty stellar at or around $2000.  That alone will bring the price down a good bit.  When you compared a total price of difference system, the cost of the front end source should be the same.  So difference is now $2000 less.  I'm in an agreement with you though that the HD800 is quite a bargain at the asking price, especially when compared to the HE1000.  I did audition the Ether and it was a really good headphones but the HD800 is better in my book if you have the right amp for it.  Now you can even get a refurblished HD800 from Headroom now for less than $1000 shipped with full warranty.

 

[comzee]

Yea, without a doubt you can go cheaper on a Stax amp. The KGST was a great example. 
 
As for having a world class system at 3.5k, I think it is very possible. One thing that does help, is Audio-GD just released a "Master 11". It's a Master 7 (Their best DAC) and Master 10 (Their best amp) together for $2k. 
 
They actually took the tech from those top end devices too, they didn't compromise. The word is that the M11 has exactly the same SQ, if not better, then the M7, and it comes with a damn good amp. I have an M7, I have a Yggy, the M7 is world class. You can name the best on one hand, Theta/Audio-GD/Schiit/MSB Tech all world class, some better then others. 
 
I would pit a M11 + HD800 against any system.
It might not have the extreme resolution of Stax, or the bass impact of Audaze, the purity of HiFiMan, but god damn does it come close. Relative to the entire ecosystem of headphones that is. Some people will say the difference between HD800s and 009s is miles, but if you're comparing only hyper cars, that BMW M5 doesn't look so good. I mean, 3.6 seconds 0-60 for $100k, or 3.1 second 0-60 for $500k?