The Stax Thread III

[robo24]

They aren't exempt from bad decisions, but there's a difference between making a commercially failed product vs making a great headphone but unable to create something as simple as an amplifier to drive it in their vast range of amplifiers.

I'd be surprised if Kevin Gilmore or Spritzer was to claim that they could hear audible differences between Stax amps like the 353x/727 vs KGSSHV or Carbon. We all know what happens with sighted tests.. Engineers will generally have a more realistic pictures of what produces difference in sounds and what doesn't... They can build you the perfectly built amplifier, but they can't make an amplifier give wider soundstage or deeper bass to a pair of headphones. They can refer to happy customers with glowing reviews, but I'd be surprised if they claimed the difference exist because technical reason a or b.

I'm curious as to what you used when you had the SR-007 MK1. I have the MK2 on the way and have the 323A amp, but see that it has been superseded by the 353 and others in the 300 range. However, from the 2006 323A to the SRM-353XBK from 2018, they all have 400 V output according to Wikipedia. I imagine other changes have been made too. I have nothing else to compare with amp-wise, but it doesn't seem like me moving up to the 353 would provide much benefit, and I'm thinking of moving up to the iFi iESL if the 323A feels insufficient. But I'm guessing that perhaps it won't be, given that the 007 has been around in some form since 1993, I'd think the 300 series amps released after they were introduced would be capable of running it at least good enough for Stax to sell as an amp for them.

 

[number1sixerfan]

deleted*

 

[DaddyWhale]

So i got myself a Lambda Pro and a T1 Combo for 700 bucks and i'm blown away. Easily the best setup i ever had. I'm so suprised about the versatility of this headphone. I always thought Stax ist for classic only but literally every genre sounds good with it. From classic music over blues to pop songs and charts. Right now i'm hearing trance with it which is nice too. Had never expected such a bass from a stax.

I agree. I'm almost shy about writing that I really enjoy listening to Massive Attack with my 009S and Carbon

 

[AudioThief]

So i got myself a Lambda Pro and a T1 Combo for 700 bucks and i'm blown away. Easily the best setup i ever had. I'm so suprised about the versatility of this headphone. I always thought Stax ist for classic only but literally every genre sounds good with it. From classic music over blues to pop songs and charts. Right now i'm hearing trance with it which is nice too. Had never expected such a bass from a stax.

Indeed. They are extremely versatile. To my ears, the lambdas are the best headphones for acoustic and classic because they are the clearest sounding headphones that exists with the most forward sounding signature. They are good for all genres except for bass centric ones. Lambdas, and most staxes issue is the lack of body. Thats not an issue with classical or acoustic, but a lot of modern tracks can sound thin and cold because of it.

IMO the Pro is to my ears endgame. I would love to own one for the collect or in me

 

[o7brother]

I'd think the 300 series amps released after they were introduced would be capable of running it at least good enough for Stax to sell as an amp for them.

Stax almost never updates their amp designs. Even if they did, the fact that they have 400V output would mean nothing, since you don't need more than that for just about any Stax (output current is another debate).

It's been said that Stax has only two circuits, the solid state one and the tube one, which isn't entirely accurate, but not too far from the truth either. Just look at the tear-downs of the SRM-T8000 amp, you will see it's basically a slight upgrade to the 727 but costs a lot more.

The 353X is basically a 323S with XLR inputs. The 717 is basically a 353X with more output transistors. There have been few major improvements in Stax's amp designs over the years.

 

[John_M]

John_M, I remember a friend who tested 353X and KGSSHV (with 009) was saying that 353X delivers even more detail. However, 353X is likely to start getting compressed at lower volumes than KGSSHV. Big bulky amps are big and bulky simply because they can deliver more power. More power = higher possible listening volumes. However, their size and their output power doesn't tell the story of how they will sound.

Thanks... so this is another thing to throw into the mix i.e. the 353X possibly delivers more detail.

I also noticed that the amps shown on the Mjolnir Audio page don't seem to have an RCA in whereas the Stax amps do (?) This may be an issue.

So if I went with a Stax solid state amp maybe either the 353X or the 717 - perhaps the 717 for the extra power? The issue with the 717 is that it was discontinued over 10 years ago so any available amp will be very old now.

 

[o7brother]

353X possibly delivers more detail

Sounds questionable to me. Why on earth would the Mafia amps sound less "detailed"? I'll give more feedback once I compare my 717 to my upcoming KGSSHV, both with the 009 and 007.

don't seem to have an RCA in whereas the Stax amps do (?) This may be an issue

Why would this be an issue? Just use adapters if your DAC only has RCA outs.

So if I went with a Stax solid state amp maybe either the 353X or the 717

You'd have a good amplifier. Not as good as the Mafia ones in an engineering sense but also much cheaper. I'm probably selling my 717 after I get the KGSSHV, so stick around

 

[John_M]

Sounds questionable to me. Why on earth would the Mafia amps sound less "detailed"? I'll give more feedback once I compare my 717 to my upcoming KGSSHV, both with the 009 and 007.

Yes, I don't know the answer to this one - was just repeating from Tugbars's post.

In light of the very 'heated' discussions there have been on the thread, it would be interesting if you got someone to blind test you...

 

[AudioThief]

Yes, I don't know the answer to this one - was just repeating from Tugbars's post.

In light of the very 'heated' discussions there have been on the thread, it would be interesting if you got someone to blind test you...

There is zero chance anyone can distinguish the amps in blind testing, and everyone knows that here. I can promise you that every single one of the mafia heads have no confidence in any sort of rigorous testing. One amp isn't more "detailed" than another, or make a headphone sound warm or cold. And it definitely doesn't work like "the more you pay for the amp the better it is". You could give someone literally owning a Carbon, put a 353x inside a Carbon chassis and show it to him, and he wouldn't be able to tell it apart from his own. Guaranteed.

 

[DaddyWhale]

There is zero chance anyone can distinguish the amps in blind testing, and everyone knows that here. I can promise you that every single one of the mafia heads have no confidence in any sort of rigorous testing. One amp isn't more "detailed" than another, or make a headphone sound warm or cold. And it definitely doesn't work like "the more you pay for the amp the better it is". You could give someone literally owning a Carbon, put a 353x inside a Carbon chassis and show it to him, and he wouldn't be able to tell it apart from his own. Guaranteed.

I'm not sure what the value is of your repeating this claim ad nauseam. You've made your views quite clear, many many times. In m view, repeating it further does not contribute to a level-headed discovery. It precludes it.

You may be right. You may be wrong. Let others discover for themselves, either through numbers or through their experience.

 

[John_M]

There is zero chance anyone can distinguish the amps in blind testing, and everyone knows that here. I can promise you that every single one of the mafia heads have no confidence in any sort of rigorous testing. One amp isn't more "detailed" than another, or make a headphone sound warm or cold. And it definitely doesn't work like "the more you pay for the amp the better it is". You could give someone literally owning a Carbon, put a 353x inside a Carbon chassis and show it to him, and he wouldn't be able to tell it apart from his own. Guaranteed.

I am taking a step back from the flame war that this is going to descend into.

 

[John_M]

There is zero chance anyone can distinguish the amps in blind testing, and everyone knows that here. I can promise you that every single one of the mafia heads have no confidence in any sort of rigorous testing. One amp isn't more "detailed" than another, or make a headphone sound warm or cold. And it definitely doesn't work like "the more you pay for the amp the better it is". You could give someone literally owning a Carbon, put a 353x inside a Carbon chassis and show it to him, and he wouldn't be able to tell it apart from his own. Guaranteed.

Actually, before I take a step back, I have one more question...! Btw I am trying to stay neutral here - it's a genuine question.

The "mafia" website includes the following statement:

"One rule has been in place since day one, I will only charge what something costs to make and not a single cent over that. Same goes for all the DIY parts I’ve had custom made for my use over the years, I’ve shared them with enthusiasts all over the world at cost. Profit, or at least the hope of it, kills the community spirit inherent in the DIY world which is why we give away our designs and free time to help others."

Your view is that their amps don't sound any different from much less powerful and expensive Stax amps, and also that they are well aware of this. But if they aren't making a profit from this, why are they doing it at all? What is the point of giving up your free time to make something which doesn't make any difference to anyone?

Query whether "no profit" means "after deducting an appropriate payment for my time working on it" - in which case the question would be how much "quasi-profit" they are taking. But the statement "we give away our designs and free time to help others" suggests that they aren't even being paid for their time.

 

[AudioThief]

I'm not sure what the value is of your repeating this claim ad nauseam. You've made your views quite clear, many many times. In m view, repeating it further does not contribute to a level-headed discovery. It precludes it.

You may be right. You may be wrong. Let others discover for themselves, either through numbers or through their experience.

The reason I'm doing it is to help people reading, like John_M and others, who have much to gain from learning the truth. I also believe truth is a noble pursuit in itself. I wonder if I was answering questions about my views about gear in a positive light, would you then ask me to stop talking about it? Isn't this a thread suitable to discuss stax amplifiers? Give purchasing advice? Discuss the difference or lack thereof in amplifiers for certain headphones? Its not like I'm rambling incoherently, I am completely on the current topic.

Actually, before I take a step back, I have one more question...! Btw I am trying to stay neutral here - it's a genuine question.

The "mafia" website includes the following statement:

"One rule has been in place since day one, I will only charge what something costs to make and not a single cent over that. Same goes for all the DIY parts I’ve had custom made for my use over the years, I’ve shared them with enthusiasts all over the world at cost. Profit, or at least the hope of it, kills the community spirit inherent in the DIY world which is why we give away our designs and free time to help others."

Your view is that their amps don't sound any different from much less powerful and expensive Stax amps, and also that they are well aware of this. But if they aren't making a profit from this, why are they doing it at all? What is the point of giving up your free time to make something which doesn't make any difference to anyone?

Query whether "no profit" means "after deducting an appropriate payment for my time working on it" - in which case the question would be how much "quasi-profit" they are taking. But the statement "we give away our designs and free time to help others" suggests that they aren't even being paid for their time.

First off, this isn't an argument that makes sense. Ask yourself, if it was for profit, as most companies are, would you then sway towards the sound difference not being there? There are many reasons why KG and Spritzer would want to make and sell their amps. They find it rewarding, they find it fun, they like the positive feedback the community gives them and so on. Does that mean there is actually a change in sound quality? No. Go to the sound science forum, or read somewhere on the internet about how amplifiers work, psychoacoustics, why it simply cannot be that these amplifiers alter the sound of either the 009 or 007 above the quality you get from the other stax amps. And I'd be very surprised if you could find either one of them, anywhere on the internet, make a statement about their amp flat out sounding better than the Stax amps. They can talk all day about being better designed, have better parts, be more optimal and so on and so forth, but sound? I doubt it. Because both of them understand that when their reviewers starts talking about how it made their headphone come to life with bigger soundstage, blacker background, more detailed and so on - its just in their heads, not the actual sound.

 

[paradoxper]

The reason I'm doing it is to help people reading, like John_M and others, who have much to gain from learning the truth. I also believe truth is a noble pursuit in itself. I wonder if I was answering questions about my views about gear in a positive light, would you then ask me to stop talking about it? Isn't this a thread suitable to discuss stax amplifiers? Give purchasing advice? Discuss the difference or lack thereof in amplifiers for certain headphones? Its not like I'm rambling incoherently, I am completely on the current topic.



First off, this isn't an argument that makes sense. Ask yourself, if it was for profit, as most companies are, would you then sway towards the sound difference not being there? There are many reasons why KG and Spritzer would want to make and sell their amps. They find it rewarding, they find it fun, they like the positive feedback the community gives them and so on. Does that mean there is actually a change in sound quality? No. Go to the sound science forum, or read somewhere on the internet about how amplifiers work, psychoacoustics, why it simply cannot be that these amplifiers alter the sound of either the 009 or 007 above the quality you get from the other stax amps. And I'd be very surprised if you could find either one of them, anywhere on the internet, make a statement about their amp flat out sounding better than the Stax amps. They can talk all day about being better designed, have better parts, be more optimal and so on and so forth, but sound? I doubt it. Because both of them understand that when their reviewers starts talking about how it made their headphone come to life with bigger soundstage, blacker background, more detailed and so on - its just in their heads, not the actual sound.

I don't think anyone who has experienced a breadth of gear over a long period of exposure would argue sound differentiation is easy, but to claim it's an
impossibility is just stupid.

Instead of harping how one should go to the Sound Science forum, why don't you start reading.

A good start that is easy to digest and understand the context of blind listening tests would be Tyll's Big Sound.
In case you aren't motivated to read, the blind-test employed validated provability of sound distinctions. Be it amps, headphones, DACs.

Shrugs.

 

[protoss]

Yikes.

You anger Mr. Hypocrite up top with his fake stax death BS.