[Tugbars]

Time to change direction in this thread.

Windseeker - Nice post and excellent read
A question for you and others - I currently own a 300LE and 009S and a 353XBK and Birgir Carbon. I had the opportunity to listen to the BHSE (briefly) at two CanJams however made the decision to go solid state for reasons of warm up, being able to forget turning it off etc. My two channel has always been solid state as well.

If I am interested in playing around and getting a taste of the "tube" sound would a 007 or 727 give me that - or would I just be spinning my wheels considering I already have the 353 (and Carbon)? It would be just for fun and a dipping of my toes into the tube waters - so for now a BHSE etc. is not on the table.

What differences in sound do you get when you switch back and forth between 353X and Carbon?

 

[AudioThief]

Actually, there isn’t really anything you can do to make the 507 sound really good. Unfortunately, it was one of their weakest. 207 puts it to shame.

Which is kind of my point - it doesn't make sense that you could drastically alter the 507 sound signature, nor does it make sense that the 007 goes from being the dark headphones they are (with excellent bass) through say the 727II, to becoming some "perfect" headphone with no errors - apparantly, the 007s have "flabby bass" through stax amps, which just isn't true.

My point is that what these people are saying doesn't make sense, and its strange how much time and money people use on these third party amps and discussing how magical they are, but producing some measurements just never happen. I wonder why. Whoever is close to being convinced that if they just spend 6000 $ more, they can achieve audio nirvana - take a step back and think logically. Or you can always trust the stax mafia and take the leap of faith. Its your money

 

[tumpux]

I find it funny that you’re so fixated on the idea that people are willing to spend some amount of printed papers to transform a toy into an agent of audio nirvana.

Dude, it’s all about the club..

 

[Tugbars]

Which is kind of my point - it doesn't make sense that you could drastically alter the 507 sound signature, nor does it make sense that the 007 goes from being the dark headphones they are (with excellent bass) through say the 727II, to becoming some "perfect" headphone with no errors - apparantly, the 007s have "flabby bass" through stax amps, which just isn't true.

My point is that what these people are saying doesn't make sense, and its strange how much time and money people use on these third party amps and discussing how magical they are, but producing some measurements just never happen. I wonder why. Whoever is close to being convinced that if they just spend 6000 $ more, they can achieve audio nirvana - take a step back and think logically. Or you can always trust the stax mafia and take the leap of faith. Its your money

Oh you still keep insisting.

some headphones require more power than others.for example, let's take a look at Susvara. Susvara has sensitivity of 83dBand people drive those headphones with speaker amps.. It's in their design to be power hungry and without enough power they sound really bad. Some headphones just do get to their potential with really powerful amps.(unlike lambdas) 007 design comes from the idea of making Omega 1 cheaper for a better competition in the market. And remember, Omega was made to be paired with strongest STAX amp ever made.

what you do is basically calling everyone member of an elitist club because they think SR007 requires huge amps to work with.There are 2 problems,

First, you haven't tried Carbon with 007.

second, you and I do not know completely what makes electrostatic headphones harder to drive. You are just speculating. You just don't believe that SR007s are hard to drive and amps with more power makes huge difference. You think your experiences with L300 or 507 applies to all headphones. Things aren't that simple.

you keep pushing your own agenda without basis of having experience with Carbon and knowledge about the topology of electrostatic amplifiers & design of electrostatic headphones. If you have questions you can message to after market amplifier makers(KG & Birgir), they are known to be very honest people, that's at least what i'm sure about. They can clear your doubts with more scientific data. The best is of course always find Carbon & 007 somewhere and see the difference with your own ears.

L700 & 353X is the best price/performance system of what STAX offers nowadays. You can get really good sound quality for much cheaper that way.

 

[AudioThief]

Oh you still keep insisting.

some headphones require more power than others.for example, let's take a look at Susvara. Susvara has sensitivity of 83dBand people drive those headphones with speaker amps.. It's in their design to be power hungry and without enough power they sound really bad. 007 design comes from the idea of making Omega 1 cheaper for a better competition in the market. And remember, Omega was made to be paired with strongest STAX amp ever made.

what you do is basically calling everyone member of an elitist club because they think SR007 requires huge amps to work with.There are 2 problems,

First, you haven't tried Carbon with 007.

second, you and I do not know completely what makes electrostatic headphones harder to drive. You are just speculating. You just don't believe that SR007s are hard to drive and amps with more power makes huge difference. You think your experiences with L300 applies to all headphones. Things aren't that simple.

you keep pushing your own agenda without basis of having experience with Carbon and knowledge about the topology of electrostatic amplifiers & design of electrostatic headphones. If you have questions you can message to after market amplifier makers(KG & Birgir), they are known to be very honest people, that's at least what i'm sure about. They can clear your doubts with more scientific data. The best is of course always find Carbon & 007 somewhere and see the difference with your own ears.

L700 & 353X is the best price/performance system of what STAX offers nowadays. You can get really good sound quality for much cheaper that way.

I have owned the SR-007 mk1 for years and tried it with different amps. I know they are hard to drive. But I also know that the TOTL stax amps such as the 007tii and 727ii have enough juice to drive them. KG & Birgir can make (and sell) the perfect amplifier for the SR-007. Doesn't mean that there is a night and day difference in sound (if any). Individual testimonials are essentially worthless.

Not that dynamic amps and estat amps are the same, but as an example:

Many very experienced and knowledegable people on the internet will insist that if you just get the HD650 a high end OTL tube amp, they will sound INCREDIBLE. Well, I did try that, a Cary 300b SEI. And it was still the HD650. I could barely tell that amp apart from my solid state amp - there was sure as hell no night and day difference. And thats tube vs SS. The 007tii and the 727ii has enough juice for the 007 (and any other Stax headphone). You do not need more, and if you do get more, it will not significantly alter the sound.

Fact is, individual testimonials are rife with errors. And what is sad is that the people insisting on the need for a Carbon or a BHSE will never acknowledge their own bias, will never actually try to measure or somehow prove that the difference is there - they will just happily pay thousands of dollars without finding out if there actually is a difference in sound, or if its in their head - not realizing just how powerful bias and placebo is. Thats a very expensive mistake to make.

edit:

And if KG and Birgir are so sure about the vast sonic improvement, why can't they just measure the headphones and prove it? I think the general gist of it is that the 007 gets perfect treble response and perfect bass, right? So just plug a 007 into a 727/717/007, measure it, then plug it into a Carbon and show the improvements - or at least the clear difference in FR. That would make much more sense, but they aren't gonna do that, are they? Because its much better for them if their followers just keep harping on about how insane it is, so they can make more sales. Because if they did measure it, I am pretty sure we would not see what all the buyers are hearing..

 

[tumpux]

Dude, he gave away his design to the diy community..

 

[tumpux]

... and it’s pathetic that you still believe that people pay thousands of dollar for the sound improvement.

It’s all about the club.

 

[AudioThief]

Dude, he gave away his design to the diy community..

Yes, but he is still selling it, and it is still his design. Not exactly unbiased

... and it’s pathetic that you still believe that people pay thousands of dollar for the sound improvement.

It’s all about the club.

Its funny how personal you are taking this.

 

[tumpux]

Nah.. I’m just sharpening my trolling skill.

 

[VandyMan]

Individual testimonials are essentially worthless.

I can't help but wonder what you get out of Head-Fi, if you believe that. Is spending a summer weekend trolling fellow headphone enthusiasts really that much fun for you?

I own a BHSE. I used to own a STAX 727ii. So I've heard the 727 and BHSE side by side. I've also heard the BHSE vs the Carbon side by side, in my home, with my 009s. They sound different. The Carbon and BHSE are significantly better (not magical, not night and day) than the 727. If you don't want to believe me, that is just fine.

 

[AudioThief]

I can't help but wonder what you get out of Head-Fi, if you believe that. Is spending a summer weekend trolling fellow headphone enthusiasts really that much fun for you?

I own a BHSE. I used to own a STAX 727ii. So I've heard the 727 and BHSE side by side. I've also heard the BHSE vs the Carbon side by side, in my home, with my 009s. They sound different. The Carbon and BHSE are significantly better (not magical, not night and day) than the 727. If you don't want to believe me, that is just fine.

How am I trolling? I'm not saying testimonials are useless, period. I've spent hours and hours reading about headphones, both when looking to purchase a specific one, or to learn about new releases etc. And what I've learned is that any individual testimonial is essentially worthless because they go in all directions. After reading very many subjective opinions on boards or reviews, I can start getting a general image about what properties are likely to be true about a pair of headphones - HD800 are by most considered "bright" but accurate and great for classical - but not everyone agrees with that. Then there are properties that people just can't seem to agree on.

The problem with the super expensive and thus exclusive third party amplifiers is that the impressions are so extremely likely to be inflicted by bias - and there are so few people out there giving impressions. On top of that, we have several boards with a cultish reverence for these amplifiers, that its not surprising at all that people feel as if its jesus' second coming once they hear these amplifiers. At the same time, no measurements proving these differences exist are out there. What should this tell someone wondering where to spend their money? That it is far more likely that this incredible difference in sound is in their heads than in the electrical signal somehow changing by the amp being overkill specced.

I appreciate that you say you don't see it as night and day, by the way. I am much more inclined to trust someone making such a claim than the army of people who will tell you that the 007 isn't a worthwhile headphone unless you get carbon/bhse.

Anyways, I am not here to disagree with you, buzzlulu, Tugbars or anyone else - enjoy your Carbon/BHSE and awesome headphones. But anyone reading should consider the reality that it is far more likely that bias plays a way bigger factor than any actual change in sound.

I think the most shocking demo I ever had was with the Sennheiser HD 700 at a shop when I was a relative newbie - I will never get that demo out of my head. I had such high expectations for the Sennheisers, both because of the brand and the pricetag. The shop plugged it into their top amplifier and showed me some demo tracks in a dimly lit room in a luxurious chair. It was crazy.

Now do I actually think the HD700 sounds that good? No. Its ok, don't get me wrong, but nothing compared to Stax in my opinion. But that demo is the single most impactful listening experience I can remember ever having, and thinking back to it reminds me just how much psychological bias plays into our perception of sound. And I think that until we see measurements proving at least the most extreme claims about this "night and day difference" (which you would expect if you spent 6000 $ on an amp), its just irresponsible to recommend people by those amps for the sound increase.

 

[-HaVoC-Tzu-]

The demo that had the most impact to me so far was a Chord Dave + Blue Hawaii + Mr. Speakers Voce.
That was fun hanging out with Bob Marley on-stage.

 

[Windseeker]

If I am interested in playing around and getting a taste of the "tube" sound would a 007 or 727 give me that - or would I just be spinning my wheels considering I already have the 353 (and Carbon)? It would be just for fun and a dipping of my toes into the tube waters - so for now a BHSE etc. is not on the table.

727 II is a solid state amp (yes, I've moved away from tubes), so I guess you mean SRM-007t II.

I do recommend auditioning it somewhere beforehand. Generally speaking, whether it's a path worth pursuing completely depends on your preference/value proposition. For example, your inclination concerning transparency vs. tasteful colorization trade-off, and whether you don't mind warming-up / tube rolling aspect that comes with tube amps, etc.

 

[kevin gilmore]

for dynamic amplifiers the same voltage swing at 1khz and 20khz is easy.

for electrostatic amplifiers a whole bunch harder.

600v power supplies require 18ma.
the koss esp950 is push pull and still can't come anywhere near close to this.
my cfaelectrostat will do this with enough heatsink.

500 v power supplies require 15ma of output current at 20khz into 120pf
A T2 can do this. A megatron can do this

450 v power supplies require 14ma of output current.
a carbon can easily do 18 to 20 ma
a kgsshv is limited to a max of about 9ma

400v power supplies require 12ma of output current
a BH will easily do this and more

350v power supplies requires 10.6ma of output current
Most stax amps (t1,717,727,007t...) are 350v power supplies and can only supply about 7ma

300v power supplies require 9ma of output current
some stax amps including the d50 are limited to about 6ma

200v power supplies (kse1500/kse1200) capacitive load 80pf (actual measured, no spec)
4ma needed, amplifier limited to +/-1ma and the thd is over 1% at 200vppss

175v power supplies D10 requires 5.25ma of output current
amplifier is limited to 6ma

 

[JimL11]

Honestly, when we're talking about differences in sound between amps, that argument has been going on for decades. Just Google "do all amps sound the same?" Are there measurable differences? Sure. Do they explain the differences in sound? Doubtful. Decades ago it was total harmonic distortion. Then it was tubes vs transistors. Then it was Transient Intermodulation Distortion (TIM). Etc., etc., etc.

And of course, everybody is measuring any subjective differences they hear with their own personal subjective scale. Does amp A sound 5% better than amp B? 10%? 50%?. And what criteria do you use? Detail? Tonality? Transparency? Drive? Dynamics? A few years ago I heard a demonstration of the effect of different power supplies on an amp. The person doing the demonstrating said it improved things by 30-40%. I thought I heard improvements on the order of 10%. And I wasn't convinced that the difference in sound was worth the increment in price.

Point is, when you're talking about subjective differences and your money, the only judge of what is or is not worth it, is you. And that goes both ways. If person A thinks that the SRM007 sounds fine and everything more expensive is a waste of money, then that's fine - for person A. If person B thinks that a DIY T2 is the best and the SRM007 is far inferior, that's fine too - for person B. Your subjective experience is your subjective experience. But unless person A and person B plan to do a mind-meld ala Mr. Spock, there really is no point in them arguing about it. The difficulty comes in when persons A and B try to convince each other that their personal experience should be the same for the other person. This generally devolves into comments that person A is deaf or person B is delusional and wasting their money - because I'M RIGHT, AND YOU'RE WRONG, DAMMIT! At least, that is IMHO.

Time to change direction in this thread.

A question for you and others - I currently own a 300LE and 009S and a 353XBK and Birgir Carbon. I had the opportunity to listen to the BHSE (briefly) at two CanJams however made the decision to go solid state for reasons of warm up, being able to forget turning it off etc. My two channel has always been solid state as well.

If I am interested in playing around and getting a taste of the "tube" sound would a 007 or 727 give me that - or would I just be spinning my wheels considering I already have the 353 (and Carbon)? It would be just for fun and a dipping of my toes into the tube waters - so for now a BHSE etc. is not on the table.

Well, the 727 is a solid state amp, so that won't give you that tube sound.

The SRM-T1 and SRM-006 are basically the same amp, the primary difference being age and possibly different transistors in some locations due to some transistors becoming obsolete. The circuit is pretty much identical. The SRM-007 also shares the same circuit except for the output, which doubles the number of output tubes, but only increases the output standing current by about 40%.

IMHO the least expensive way to get a taste of tube sound is to get a used SRM-T1 and replace all the electrolytic caps or find someone who can do it for you - parts cost for the caps should be around $50, and any repair technician should be able to do the job. The stock T1 with just the electrolytic caps replaced actually should do fine with the 300LE and may do OK with the 009S (it was actually one of Stax's reference amps when the original Omega came out (the SR007 Mk I is also known as the Omega II).

Some find the T1 to be a bit flabby in the bass and somewhat lacking in the highs with the SR007, although this is somewhat level dependent. My DIY mod, which replaces the output plate resistors with constant current loads largely ameliorates this, and more than doubles the effective power of the output tubes by eliminating the wastage of signal current in the plate resistors. In fact, the modded T1 actually has a higher voltage output capability than a stock SRM-007 despite using half the number of output tubes. Incidentally, of the 3-4 people who have heard my modded T1 compared to the SRM727 with global feedback mod, all of them preferred the modded T1.