[BreadMaster]

Stax SRM-252s -> Modi 3 -> Stax SR-L500
Atrox v2 - > Modi 3 - > LCD 2.2c

This summarizes it pretty well.



While I appreciate the questioning and not taking things for granted, your comment about people who bought 3rd party amps being just a band of elitist reads more like one’s frustration about financial accessibility of the items rather than some grounded feedback.

I have no coin in the game since I’ve actually sold off my stat gear and actually tremendously enjoying my return back to “technically inferior” electro-dynamic systems. But, I can certainly attest that there is a world beyond Stax brand amps and Stax are of course well aware of this.

There’s a reason why so much effort has been put on lambda series these past years or even comparatively easier to drive 009/S headphones.

lol good point. The guy just salty because he couldnt afford to hear what a fully driven 007 would sound like. Noob playing high-tier Stax game lol


Stax SRM-252s -> Modi 3 -> Stax SR-L500
Atrox v2 - > Modi 3 - > LCD 2.2c

RIIGGHT

 

[AudioThief]

Stax SRM-252s -> Modi 3 -> Stax SR-L500
Atrox v2 - > Modi 3 - > LCD 2.2c

lol good point. The guy just salty because he couldnt afford to hear what a fully driven 007 would sound like. Noob playing high-tier Stax game lol


Stax SRM-252s -> Modi 3 -> Stax SR-L500
Atrox v2 - > Modi 3 - > LCD 2.2c

RIIGGHT

Jesus christ.. I'm not sure what you are getting at here? If you think this debate is about money, you are wrong. And even if I was a legit homeless man who had only ever heard a koss porta pro, the truth of my arguments wouldn't be presided by what gear I own. I know what a fully driven 007 sounds like because I've had a 007 with a 727ii for years. I prefered the lambda series, so I "downgraded". I see you like to laugh at my Modi 3 a lot - I've owned a gustard x20, too. The modi 3 sounds excellent - I highly recommend it

 

[tabness]

I am fortunate enough that I can purchase most any setup I want. I have been heavy into TOTL two channel for decades and dabble with headphones. I agree with what you said about Stax appearing daunting however in reality it is possible to enter the "club" for a reasonable amount of money.

When I returned to HeadFi two years ago after a 14 year absence I immediately went for what was acknowledged as the headphone King at the time (2 years ago) and bought the Utopia for $4k.

I dipped my toes into the Stax water a little over a year ago with the L300LE and 353XBK amplifier. Total spend $1600 for headphone and amplifier i.e. less than HALF the cost of the Utopia (headphone alone not amp!).
I feel confident saying that the 300LE/353 combo can EASILY stand toe to toe with the Utopia - at a fraction of the cost.

So yes - one does not need to spend mega dollars for a Stax setup. However - let's not denigrate the TOTL third party amps such as the Carbon and BHSE. They ARE better - at least as per my demo.
Bye the way - the Carbon costs LESS than the current TOTL Stax amplifier today (T8000)

Well I don't think there has been much denigrating of the third party amps going on. Speaking for myself I just said you should be able to drive 009/007 with Stax amps (more powerful ones on the 007 vs the 009) and still get the a pretty good sound out of that headphone. No doubt the third party amps provide more voltage swing and current as I posted the thread with the stats on that. But what's the benefit of that (besides the obvious driving the volume louder)? I've read less treble roll off (especially with the 007) and better bass. Regulated power supplies have the benefit of giving you better transients. None of these things seem worth it for me to pay the price increase and more importantly get away from the Stax brand (lot of psycho acoustic baggage there with me). We were also mostly discussing the cheaper amps as it is pretty well known the T8000 isn't a big step up in terms of voltage swing improvement compared to price. It is unfortunate though understandable that Stax doesn't have anything to replace what the T2 could provide or get close enough to it.

For me though aside from my own personal experiences telling me that differences are perceived to be much less of a big deal to me than to others (and I know for a fact that others are like me so I'm just really trying to advise and help them not so much those who really perceive the differences to be large) it is just the fact that I want to stick with the Stax brand. There are a bunch of electrostats out recently from different companies and DIYers. I'm sure they sound great but I really never have any inclination of listening to them cause I'm down with Stax. Same with the amps.

But I do want to also help move off this subject, and my regret now is that the 009S is not going to be my favorite headphone or the best I heard (the CD3000/R10 midrange is just more beautiful and I'll take that over the last bit of detail especially in bass and speed) so it will likely need to go just like the Utopia before it. Thus I take another hit of close to $1000 (and at least I got to listen to the Utopia for months and for a while it was my favorite before I heard the CD3000). However there are enough interesting things with electrostat sound that I want to keep one for use when I'm using the computer. But it seems ridiculous to have the 009S as a backup headphone. I'm starting to look into the Lambdas and there are people who actually prefer the Lambda sound to the 007/009 tier which is promising but which Lambda lol? The L700 seems less detailed than the L500 according to some impressions? I'd sacrifice midrange for neutrality so the details in the other frequencies are easier to hear since I already have the CD3000/R10. Also the Lambdas just look so dorky lol.

 

[buzzlulu]

Well, the 727 is a solid state amp, so that won't give you that tube sound.

The SRM-T1 and SRM-006 are basically the same amp, the primary difference being age and possibly different transistors in some locations due to some transistors becoming obsolete. The circuit is pretty much identical. The SRM-007 also shares the same circuit except for the output, which doubles the number of output tubes, but only increases the output standing current by about 40%.

IMHO the least expensive way to get a taste of tube sound is to get a used SRM-T1 and replace all the electrolytic caps or find someone who can do it for you - parts cost for the caps should be around $50, and any repair technician should be able to do the job. The stock T1 with just the electrolytic caps replaced actually should do fine with the 300LE and may do OK with the 009S (it was actually one of Stax's reference amps when the original Omega came out (the SR007 Mk I is also known as the Omega II).

Some find the T1 to be a bit flabby in the bass and somewhat lacking in the highs with the SR007, although this is somewhat level dependent. My DIY mod, which replaces the output plate resistors with constant current loads largely ameliorates this, and more than doubles the effective power of the output tubes by eliminating the wastage of signal current in the plate resistors. In fact, the modded T1 actually has a higher voltage output capability than a stock SRM-007 despite using half the number of output tubes. Incidentally, of the 3-4 people who have heard my modded T1 compared to the SRM727 with global feedback mod, all of them preferred the modded T1.

Jim
As always thank you for the detailed reply. My typo above - should have read 007 or new 007tii (not ss 727 as I already have a 353)
Then again there recently have been some second hand BHSE showing up every now and then

 

[Currawong]

I know what a fully driven 007 sounds like because I've had a 007 with a 727ii for years.

I know what sex feels like because I... for years.

 

[tumpux]

350v power supplies requires 10.6ma of output current
Most stax amps (t1,717,727,007t...) are 350v power supplies and can only supply about 7ma

Anyway what prevents Stax to increase the output current on their commercial amp?
I mean they already play in a very premium and segmented market anyway. If they worried about practicality, the Current Feedback Amp design or even applying the Constant Current Source mod on its existing output stage should overcome the issue.

 

[astrostar59]

Jesus christ.. I'm not sure what you are getting at here? If you think this debate is about money, you are wrong. And even if I was a legit homeless man who had only ever heard a koss porta pro, the truth of my arguments wouldn't be presided by what gear I own. I know what a fully driven 007 sounds like because I've had a 007 with a 727ii for years. I prefered the lambda series, so I "downgraded". I see you like to laugh at my Modi 3 a lot - I've owned a gustard x20, too. The modi 3 sounds excellent - I highly recommend it

This is getting heated. Really this IMO is down to Stax, their fault. They can and should make better amps. Period. The cans scale so.....

 

[arnaud]

It's been rehashed countless times but I guess this all fades aways slowly...
In a few words / as I recall, shipping weight, projected MSRP and expected roi.
You're a bit more cautious when your company has once gone under due to overly bold moves...
Actually, the SR009 in itself was already a very expense endaevour and may have expedited the end of Stax independence.
Opinions on Stax gear in this board probably do not reflect overall sales but I keep wondering if the T8000 will ever be profitable product for Stax and that might make them even less inclined to go further long this road.

 

[astrostar59]

Well, there are LOTS of small audio companies doing great such as Dartzeel (7 staff) for example. Many too many to list. There is a niche for high quality audio but the product has to be superb, and the price reflective of the performance. Both don't apply to the T8000 IMO.

Head-amp has been making the BHSE for 5+ years? And they are also a small company. I don't see the issue with Stax not doing it. Unless they are outsourcing the boards and such, creating more markup? But there is huge resource in Japan to build a TOTL amp. I don't get it.

My guess is they may not have the expertise in-house? The designs of their amps seem to be old rehashed circuits? Thoughts anyone....

I really wish they would bring out the best amp, shake things up. It would bring a complete highest level system to more users IMO, give confidence.

 

[tumpux]

I'm not talking about mammoth amps like T2.
Implementing CCS on the output stage should help. Release a small batch to commemorate Reiwa era. We all are suckers for those..

 

[soren_brix]

Anyway what prevents Stax to increase the output current on their commercial amp?

I'm not talking about mammoth amps like T2.
Implementing CCS on the output stage should help. Release a small batch to commemorate Reiwa era. We all are suckers for those..

However, raising the current in the output stage means more heat, means heavier sinks/chassis, and most likely more bold output transistors as well

The 727 features just that, so Stax already did it, and for some reason decided not to pursue it further ...

 

[JimL11]

Anyway what prevents Stax to increase the output current on their commercial amp?
I mean they already play in a very premium and segmented market anyway. If they worried about practicality, the Current Feedback Amp design or even applying the Constant Current Source mod on its existing output stage should overcome the issue.

I'm not talking about mammoth amps like T2.
Implementing CCS on the output stage should help. Release a small batch to commemorate Reiwa era. We all are suckers for those..

All the Stax solid state output amps (717,323, 727, 353, T8000) have constant current loads on the outputs, none of their tube output amps (T1, 006, 007) have constant current loads, with the exception of the discontinued SRM-T2. Why they haven't updated their tube output amp technology is anyone's guess. Since they have solid state input and intermediate stages, they are already hybrid amps, so it's not as if they are going for a pure tube amp anyways.

As for increasing the output current, I agree with @soren_brix - Stax amps are designed for reliable long life, which means running the electronics conservatively, and that means relatively low temperatures. In addition, until the T8000, they had settled on a relatively small form factor for their amps. Higher current would require larger heat sinks, possibly larger amp size, certainly more weight, which increases shipping cost, etc.

Also, remember that Stax' primary market is Japan. Japanese homes are relatively small compared to Europe or the US. There is the apocryphal story of a Japanese who bought a grand piano for their apartment, which was so small that they ended up sleeping under it. Consider the size of the original SRM-T2, which was the proximate cause of the original Stax company going bankrupt, versus the DIY T2 The circuits are identical, but the latter is several times bigger, for better heat management. The original T2 is notorious for reliability problems in part due to its small size. I would not be surprised if that small size was chosen to make it more acceptable to the Japanese domestic market.

The common guess is that they were burned by their SOTA T2 causing bankruptcy, so they are reluctant to make the same mistake twice. They are presumably doing fine selling what they have, so why rock the boat?

 

[Tugbars]

I think there is no profit in high-end electrostatic amplifier market. Especially when Birgir is selling his amps with almost no profit margin.

There is something that i can't figure out, if Carbon has higher current output and the voltage swing is only affecting the loudness, how come T2 can sound better than Carbon; i'm asking because the general consensus in these forums is that T2 is sounding better than Carbon.

 

[AudioThief]

I don't think there is no profit in high-end electrostatic amplifier market. Especially when Birgir is selling his amps with almost no profit margin.

There is something that i can't figure out, if Carbon has higher current output and the voltage swing is only affecting the loudness, how come T2 can sound better than Carbon; i'm asking because the general consensus in these forums is that T2 is sounding better than Carbon.

But he still makes them and is likely partial as to how good it sounds. As for T2, it is a legendary amplifier and much rarer than Carbon, so since it is less accessible, people are likely to attribute it EVEN GREATER sound. Not that it actually sounds any better, because that doesn't make any sense.

 

[Ojisan]

I don't think there is no profit in high-end electrostatic amplifier market. Especially when Birgir is selling his amps with almost no profit margin.

There is something that i can't figure out, if Carbon has higher current output and the voltage swing is only affecting the loudness, how come T2 can sound better than Carbon; i'm asking because the general consensus in these forums is that T2 is sounding better than Carbon.

If I read Kevin's earlier post correctly, he is saying T2 can do 500v/15mA at 20kHz into 120pf. Carbon does 450v/18-20mA. That's already a 50v drop despite a higher current and Kevin hasn't mentioned the frequency/load. So it seems that numbers suggest T2 still is at the top of the group in terms of drive capability. I'm sure there are other factors like slew rate based on available device and topology, etc.