[MaZa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by alpeggio /img/forum/go_quote.gif Maybe you don't "hear" the veil because your hearing is good. That makes more sense.

Its not matter of if headphones are good or if hearing is good. Peoples ears pick different frequencies differently. For some ears that diffuse field equalisation dips are acoustically exactly correct, to others its what they are like in frequency curve: dips giving sensation that something is recessed in upper mids and highs.

High-end Sennheisers are good headphones in every technical way, but their acoustic solutions for perfect sound is far from perfect for some ears, including mine.

 

[Davesrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaZa /img/forum/go_quote.gif Upper Sennheisers are good headphones in every technical way, but their acoustic solutions for perfect sound is far from perfect for some ears.

The 580 series was designed for the accoustics of a concert hall IMHO (where bass carries over more then treble: and you can get a feeling of body with strings and percussions). Keeping to my promise, must include this with every page here:

For those that say Senn fans don't know what veil is because we haven't listened to forward sounding headphones...many of us have...we know they're not as detailed or airy as others: instead they offer an extended range. This is also why they seem slow to some. If you don't like their presentation, don't get them! There is no such thing as a one sized fits all headphone. Shoudn't this be a good thing? More choice I tell you!

This is a good article that may shed light onto why Sennheiser designed the 580 series the way they did (my ears, temperment feel that they're good for concert setting....others like the AKG solution better).

http://www.regonaudio.com/Records%20and%20Reality.html

 

[MaZa]

Quote:

The 580 series was designed for the accoustics of a concert hall IMHO (where bass carries over more then treble: and you can get a feeling of body with strings and percussions). Keeping to my promise, must include this with every page here: For those that say Senn fans don't know what veil is because we haven't listened to forward sounding headphones...many of us have...we know they're not as detailed or airy as others: instead they offer an extended range. This is also why they seem slow to some. If you don't like their presentation, don't get them! There is no such thing as a one sized fits all headphone. Shoudn't this be a good thing? More choice I tell you!

Exactly bulls-eye IMO!

 

[rhester]

I didn't mean the veil comment in a negative way, I love the sound of my 600s. But there is a little bit less up freq energy on Senns than on some other cans. I mostly like warm, full sounding equipment (both home system and cans) than I can listen to all day without fatigue, but there are times when I want that upper freq in your face brighter presentation and you don't get that with the Senns.

 

[granodemostasa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davesrose /img/forum/go_quote.gif The 580 series was designed for the accoustics of a concert hall IMHO (where bass carries over more then treble: and you can get a feeling of body with strings and percussions). Keeping to my promise, must include this with every page here: For those that say Senn fans don't know what veil is because we haven't listened to forward sounding headphones...many of us have...we know they're not as detailed or airy as others: instead they offer an extended range. This is also why they seem slow to some. If you don't like their presentation, don't get them! There is no such thing as a one sized fits all headphone. Shoudn't this be a good thing? More choice I tell you! This is a good article that may shed light onto why Sennheiser designed the 580 series the way they did (my ears, temperment feel that they're good for concert setting....others like the AKG solution better). http://www.regonaudio.com/Records%20and%20Reality.html

I could see this arguement for someone sitting in the second tier of the concert hall (as i did last night). but everytime i sit right up front (2-5th rows) the overall balence resembles the HE90 or HD600 more than the HD650.

 

[Davesrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhester /img/forum/go_quote.gif I mostly like warm, full sounding equipment (both home system and cans) than I can listen to all day without fatigue, but there are times when I want that upper freq in your face brighter presentation and you don't get that with the Senns.

That's why Grados are a good compliment to Senns

 

[Davesrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by granodemostasa /img/forum/go_quote.gif I could see this arguement for someone sitting in the second tier of the concert hall (as i did last night). but everytime i sit right up front (2-5th rows) the overall balence resembles the HE90 or HD600 more than the HD650.

Which concert hall were you in? If you read the article, it tells you that accoustics in concert halls are different too. So I guess we can have pointless debates about what headphone sounds most like what concert at what concert hall, because of our setups, ears, the recording used, and concert venue

 

[rhester]

I think that no matter how well a can reproduces the source it is given, the sound of the hall will never make it to your ears. I recording technology and techniques are not adequate to reproduce what our ears are able to hear in a concert hall. Not on point to the discussion, but I think it needs to be said.

 

[Solrighal]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaZa /img/forum/go_quote.gif Its not matter of if headphones are good or if hearing is good. Peoples ears pick different frequencies differently. For some ears that diffuse field equalisation dips are acoustically exactly correct, to others its what they are like in frequency curve: dips giving sensation that something is recessed in upper mids and highs. High-end Sennheisers are good headphones in every technical way, but their acoustic solutions for perfect sound is far from perfect for some ears, including mine.

I agree completely. Good post.

 

[granodemostasa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhester /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think that no matter how well a can reproduces the source it is given, the sound of the hall will never make it to your ears. I recording technology and techniques are not adequate to reproduce what our ears are able to hear in a concert hall. Not on point to the discussion, but I think it needs to be said.

random thoughts:
i think that my fear with the soundstage is that it isn't giving me the source's interpretation... say it was recorded in a studio/10 feet from the conductor, as opposed to a live recording done at a particular concert hall.

there is some equipment that takes liberty with the soundstage; say a recording that was made in a 12X15 room, might sould like a 18X22 room... although this isnt a problem with the HD650.

 

[Davesrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by granodemostasa /img/forum/go_quote.gif random thoughts: there is some equipment that takes liberty with the soundstage; say a recording that was made in a 12X15 room, might sould like a 18X22 room... although this isnt a problem with the HD650.

This is another reason why there's not one golden end all be all headphone. None of them.....not even the Orpheus, can entirely reproduce a live concert because of the differences in recording equipment and the source you're using. Audio equipment can never be able to exactly reproduce the room accoustics that you're in: even compounding the fact is that it also matters where in the room you are.

 

[alpeggio]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaZa /img/forum/go_quote.gif Its not matter of if headphones are good or if hearing is good. Peoples ears pick different frequencies differently. For some ears that diffuse field equalisation dips are acoustically exactly correct, to others its what they are like in frequency curve: dips giving sensation that something is recessed in upper mids and highs. High-end Sennheisers are good headphones in every technical way, but their acoustic solutions for perfect sound is far from perfect for some ears, including mine.

If he can't hear the veil it doesn't mean he's got bad hearing.
The veil isn't something you hear is it? It's something that make the sound muffled. And I'm not saying if you are bothered by this "cloak" that you have bad ears but you have a different kind of ears.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaZa /img/forum/go_quote.gif High-end Sennheisers are good headphones in every technical way, but their acoustic solutions for perfect sound is far from perfect for some ears, including mine.

And the same goes with Grado's for an example, good headphones technically but not for everyone.

 

[MaZa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by alpeggio /img/forum/go_quote.gif If he can't hear the veil it doesn't mean he's got bad hearing. The veil isn't something you hear is it? It's something that make the sound muffled. And I'm not saying if you are bothered by this "cloak" that you have bad ears but you have a different kind of ears. And the same goes with Grado's for an example, good headphones technically but not for everyone.

Yes, but your "Maybe you don't "hear" the veil because your hearing is good." was kinda... offensive...

 

[Rrose Selavy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mirumu /img/forum/go_quote.gif I wouldn't say the thread is pointless, the original question seemed quite a reasonable thing to ask for someone who saw the term veil and didn't know what it meant in this context. There has been some good discussion in the thread. Just seems there's a few with an axe to grind one way or the other.

This thread is pointles in it's redundancy. There have been countless threads hundreds of posts deep on this subject.

 

[reivaj]

Well I heard a hd650 and a 325i amped for the first time yesterday at a fellow headfiers house and i must say... the veil was quite apparent. strange thing is i listened to the hd650 first and was fine but couldnt hear the veil but after i did side by side comparisons trying to listen to different nuances and sounds thats when i heard it and it made me sad at the 650s.