The Reference 6SN7 Thread

May 16, 2023 at 6:39 PM Post #8,792 of 10,669
I have a matched pair of Shuguang 300BS-B As supplied by Earle Weston when I bought a 300B Time Machine from him years ago. They are Shuguang's copy of the famous Western Electric 300B tube. Great for backups, I quite liked them some do some don’t. $215 inc postage anywhere in Australia. Or I would be happy to swap them for a pair of 807 for my Ultima when it arrives.
 

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May 16, 2023 at 7:23 PM Post #8,793 of 10,669
It is just a misinterpretation...that most people dont quite understand...before you jump on me, again it is just my opinion...LOL
It is the same when people hear of the word, distortion, in audio. Most if not all will right away think of it as a negative interpretation.
Audio or sound engineer will say otherwise, not all distortions are bad. In fact, what we hear from a typical tube that is described as tubey, airy, etc...is a form of distortion.
Back to the word, aggressive...yeah, I cant think of a better word to describe it. IMO, I still think it is a simple and direct word to describe the sound signature of most TS tubes compared to say, the typical British sound from most British tubes. Tubes with aggressive sound signature do not necessary mean they sound bad. To me, it is generally referring to fast, dynamic, high clarity, heavy bass, etc...you get my point. Personally, I would prefer to use these tubes for fast and bass heavy music genre like heavy metal, rock, electronic, etc...You wouldnt want to use a tube with slow and extremely euphonic tone, would you? In other words, aggressive sounding tube can be good.
Yeah, I listen to a wide range of music genre from pop, heavy metal, rock, jazz, blues, folk, instrumental, classical, J-pop, K-pop (not that I understand what they are singing...LOL), anime, C-pop, etc...

P.S. the echo you describe is actually not echo but what sound engineer called harmonic distortion.
Funny - I personally experience the same thing with the 6C8G TS BGRP, which is why it rarely gets any playing time.

In comparison to the British offerings, I would describe it as being more dry/thin type of SQ with less body. And not just in comparison to the British 6SN7 variant offerings - even compared to 6C8G produced by NU which rarely comes along - its internals are much different than the much more common NU 6C8G with two support posts on each side - actually its the picture Valve Museum has on their site (this 6C8G is special imo).

1684279155609.png

http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aad0062.htm

TS BGRP just lacks the warmth full bodied SQ I go for (I think this may be referred to as 'tubey' SQ). I am not the biggest fan if I am being honest, but am not taking away from others opinions on its SQ, just not for me I suppose.
 
May 16, 2023 at 8:20 PM Post #8,795 of 10,669
Tbh, I would rather just listen to the tubes themselves. In my experience the hype of specific tubes is rarely warranted at todays prices. Here is a list of inputs I have rolled, and continue building on. It was put together for a different project, and I am sure I am forgetting some - but I have been down many many roads and have found many inputs that will walk circles around TS BGRP for pennies on the dollar to what those tubes go for these days.

All I'm saying is there are great, and I mean fantastic undiscovered gems out there, and one should not disregard trying to hunt these down because the internet (or experts on a subjective experience) says this tube or that tube is about the best there is. Not saying the TS BGRP is a bad sounding tube, just that in my personal opinion, my subjective experience in regards to its SQ is not worth anywhere close to what they sell for these days.

INPUTS
Dual Type 24 (2.5V @ 3.5A total [1.75A per])
Dual 484/485 (3.0V @ 2.0A total [1.25A per])
Dual 27/227 (2.5V @ 3.5A total [1.75A per])
Dual 235 (2.5V @ 3.5A total [1.75A per])
Dual 551 (2.5V @ 3.5A total [1.75A per])
Dual 56 (2.5V @ 2.0A total [1.0A per])
Dual 35/51

Single 9AU7 (4.7V @ 0.225A)

Single 6BL7/6BX7 (6.3V @ 1.5A total)
Dual MHLD6 (6.3V @ 1.27A total [0.635A per])
Dual 6AG7 (6.3V @ 1.3A total [0.65A per])
Dual 6AC7 (6.3V @ 0.9A total [0.45A per])
Dual VR55 (6.3V @ 0.4A total [0.2A per])
Dual ARTH2/ECH25 (6.3V @ 0.445A total [0.225A per])
Dual E1148 (6.3V @ 0.4A total [0.2A per])
Dual 5654 (6.3V @ 0.35A total [0.175A per])
Single 6SN7 (6.3V @ 0.6A total)
Dual 6SR7GT
Dual 6SA7GT
Dual 2C26 (6.3V @ 2.2A total)
Dual 38
Dual 37
Dual 6SH7
7193
6C8G
6F8G
6N7G
6J7G
6U7G
6R7
6V7
6K8
6B8G
E80CC
7119
6L5G
5692
VR56
EF37A
VT-224/2C34
KTW61
X65/VR99


Single 12SN7 (12.6V @ 0.3A total)
Dual 12J5 (12.6V @ 0.3A total [0.15A per])
Dual 12SR7GT
Dual 12SA7GT
Dual 1626

25SN7/1633/13D1/CV423 (25V @ 0.15A)
Dual 25L6 (25V @ 0.6A total [0.3A per])
 
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May 16, 2023 at 8:24 PM Post #8,796 of 10,669
Not talking about price but strictly on the TS BGRP sound. Old timers like Skylab favours it. Once you bring price into the equation, you'll justify any tubes over it. The tube is rare now, just like ECC31, ECC33, ECC35 that I also hold in high regards with the Glenn OTL amp.
 
May 16, 2023 at 8:33 PM Post #8,797 of 10,669
Not talking about price but strictly on the TS BGRP sound. Old timers like Skylab favours it. Once you bring price into the equation, you'll justify any tubes over it. The tube is rare now, just like ECC31, ECC33, ECC35 that I also hold in high regards with the Glenn OTL amp.
The price of the tube has nothing to do with why I rarely use the one I do have. It is because for me personally, I do not enjoy its SQ as much as a great number of different tubes I currently have.

Like I said in my first post, I am not discounting anyone's personal experience and enjoyment they have related to TS BGRP, it is just I happen to experience the same sort of thing @TLO described, and these opinions are just as valid as anyone else's, especially when we are dealing with probably one of the most subjective experiences/hobbies out there.
 
May 16, 2023 at 8:39 PM Post #8,798 of 10,669
Sure there's no constant these days unlike the old days. Everyone have their own preference now and that's how it is these days. To call TS bgrp as thin sounding is unheard of.
 
May 16, 2023 at 8:42 PM Post #8,799 of 10,669
Sure there's no constant these days unlike the old days. Everyone have their own preference now and that's how it is these days. To call TS bgrp as thin sounding is unheard of.
Well now you've heard it :wink: (and ofc this is comparing it to British variants - if you compare it to other's, it's not - but that's how I would describe it compared to those specific tubes).
 
May 16, 2023 at 9:04 PM Post #8,800 of 10,669
Sure there's no constant these days unlike the old days. Everyone have their own preference now and that's how it is these days. To call TS bgrp as thin sounding is unheard of.
Eh, I have also written about how I have had trouble finding a good match with this tube. They inevitably sound kind of dry to me with most of the output tubes I have tried. I did recently find that they sound very good with the vt60a as long as I have b36 in my preamp. If you only have one sample then it’s possible you just have a bad one. I’ve rolled in several and consistently hear the same thing though.

To be fair the TS BGRP isn’t alone in this regard. For me it is all about the combination with other tubes. I like all of my regular tubes, but only in the right configurations. None of them, including the TS BGRP is a 100% right choice all the time.
 
May 16, 2023 at 11:04 PM Post #8,801 of 10,669
Eh, I have also written about how I have had trouble finding a good match with this tube. They inevitably sound kind of dry to me with most of the output tubes I have tried. I did recently find that they sound very good with the vt60a as long as I have b36 in my preamp. If you only have one sample then it’s possible you just have a bad one. I’ve rolled in several and consistently hear the same thing though.

To be fair the TS BGRP isn’t alone in this regard. For me it is all about the combination with other tubes. I like all of my regular tubes, but only in the right configurations. None of them, including the TS BGRP is a 100% right choice all the time.
Which brings me to a theory I have (and I could never muster much enthusiasm for the TS BGRP tube either): My theory is that certain tube sellers have pushed tubes that even a novice could easily identify. The distinct black glass pattern of the Tung Sol tubes anybody can identify, which is not the case with many other tubes that look pretty much the same to the untrained eye. Likewise, red base, brown base, curved base, gray glass, black glass etc. are easy to tell apart. Enter unscrupulous sellers with claims that these tubes sound the best with the resultant increase in prices.
The synergy between different tubes is extremely important. And as g0ldl10n states, there are a number of lesser known and very inexpensive tubes that sound excellent and IMHO sound better than the accepted "best sounding" tubes.
These opinions are judged by how the tubes sound and not justified by an inexpensive price.
 
May 17, 2023 at 4:13 AM Post #8,802 of 10,669
Which brings me to a theory I have (and I could never muster much enthusiasm for the TS BGRP tube either): My theory is that certain tube sellers have pushed tubes that even a novice could easily identify. The distinct black glass pattern of the Tung Sol tubes anybody can identify, which is not the case with many other tubes that look pretty much the same to the untrained eye. Likewise, red base, brown base, curved base, gray glass, black glass etc. are easy to tell apart. Enter unscrupulous sellers with claims that these tubes sound the best with the resultant increase in prices.
The synergy between different tubes is extremely important. And as g0ldl10n states, there are a number of lesser known and very inexpensive tubes that sound excellent and IMHO sound better than the accepted "best sounding" tubes.
These opinions are judged by how the tubes sound and not justified by an inexpensive price.
+1
If we were to listen to the "experts" on which tubes sound the best, then life would be very boring with no explorations or first hand experiences... :laughing:
Exploring new tubes is part of the thrill in the tube rolling journey, imo.
I am still waiting for @g0ldl10n to set up his tube museum, so I can visit one day...lol
 
May 17, 2023 at 8:00 AM Post #8,804 of 10,669
On my lunch break today I decided to stroll through Adelphi mall (Singapore’s audiophile mall) and I saw a pair of Linlai e-300b through a shop window. Took it home. Cost me 700USD. Straight out of the box it already sounds good with the Linlai E6SN7. Top and bottom end extension, detail, space, staging all improved. They go together very well because both are balanced and clear, so it doesn’t feel like I’m getting too much of anything.

My amp also has not gotten as hot as with it did with the stock tubes, so I guess that means more efficient use of power?

I saw Takatsukis at another shop window (1860 USD) to potentially pair with the Linlai E6sn7. Maybe some other time.

Look how they look so handsome together. They look like beautiful glass udders.


IMG_0903.jpeg
 
May 17, 2023 at 8:05 AM Post #8,805 of 10,669
They do look lovely all together there, made for each other and apart from the visual wait until they are run in some.
 

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