[upstateguy]

1. What is it?

1. Does it really exist?

1. How prevelent is it?

1. Have you ever experienced it?

1. If so, what was it like? (tell us your experience)

1. How easy was it to mistake the Placebo effect for reality?

1. How sure were you that your heard something?

1. Was it affected by your expectations?

USG

 

[dvessel]

Some of this may be obvious but here it is anyway..

The term is formally used in Medicine. It's used in studies by having two groups to test new medications. The control group to test for the placebo and the ones getting the real treatment. Each group is lead to believe that they are getting the real thing. This is because simply believing in the treatment can often lead the body react on its own. The two groups are compared to see if the medication is having any real effect.

The way it's used in audio, it's believing something is there when it is really not. This can apply to anything and everybody has experienced this at some point. It's transparent. You will never know since it's not a conscious effort.

How to prevent it? I'm not sure you can unless you have the right mindset. Simply being aware of it can help. I always try to play devils advocate. Weight both sides. Polar thinking to minimize taking of sides prematurely.

 

[WindowsX]

In this forum, it's the defination of an act from group that couldn't differentitate something in world of audiophile mysterious (to them) by telling it's all a lie and you just mock it up on your mind.....sigh

 

[Sovkiller]

Of course it exists, it is part of any scientific result analysis, specially but not restricted to, in medicine, psychology, etc...In some cases is so real that there is no way of separating it from reality...

 

[colonelkernel8]

Quote:

Originally Posted by WindowsX /img/forum/go_quote.gif In this forum, it's the defination of an act from group that couldn't differentitate something in world of audiophile mysterious (to them) by telling it's all a lie and you just mock it up on your mind.....sigh

The irony of this post in this forum is astounding. Not to mention hypocritical.

 

[fwojciec]

It is very real. One should learn how to induce it and enjoy it, but one should avoid paying a lot of money for it.

 

[colonelkernel8]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fwojciec /img/forum/go_quote.gif It is very real. One should learn how to induce it and enjoy it, but one should avoid paying a lot of money for it.

Unfortunately, in this forum, if you didn't spend a lot of money on it, the chance of you experiencing it is less, at least this is what my experience has shown me.

 

[fwojciec]

Quote:

Originally Posted by colonelkernel8 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Unfortunately, in this forum, if you didn't spend a lot of money on it, the chance of you experiencing it is less, at least this is what my experience has shown me.

Yes, it seems that many people around here approach the problem in a rather unartful way.

 

[dvessel]

Hehe, interesting perspective but inducing it upon yourself isn't a placebo. Maybe the effects can be the same but we'd have to call it something else. Unless your smoking grass, I don't see how it can be done.

 

[gilency]

The placebo effect can be further encouraged by enthusiastic recommendations and opinions of hi-fi equipment. How I wish there was an objectiveness forum. I'd love top see randomized, double blinded, placebo controlled studies on headphones, amplifiers and DAC's (or lack of...) and of course, cables. And yes, I know sound is very subjective, but we don't even know what percent of individuals would prefer phone X over phone Y. Or, are there certain characteristics or traits which would allow us to predict with a reasonable degree of certainty which individuals would prefer a certain kind of sound or headphones?
And who would sponsor unbiased studies? Headphone companies?

 

[fwojciec]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dvessel /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hehe, interesting perspective but inducing it upon yourself isn't a placebo. Maybe the effects can be the same but we'd have to call it something else. Unless your smoking grass, I don't see how it can be done.

Why call it something else? It's a perfectly good term, I even like the way the word "placebo" sounds... Words are not just some passive containers of meaning, they can also be creative, they can generate new discernments and activate alternative modes of experience. Why be a stickler for definitional correctness?

 

[monolith]

Quote:

Originally Posted by WindowsX /img/forum/go_quote.gif In this forum, it's the defination of an act from group that couldn't differentitate something in world of audiophile mysterious (to them) by telling it's all a lie and you just mock it up on your mind.....sigh

That's barely intelligible, but if I read it correctly, it further supports my theory that you've never read a post by anyone on this forum with an opposing viewpoint to yours.

Whatever this magic new blinder technology you possess is, I'm sure there are many in equestrian circles who'd love to get their hands on it.

 

[wavoman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gilency /img/forum/go_quote.gif The placebo effect can be further encouraged by enthusiastic recommendations and opinions of hi-fi equipment. How I wish there was an objectiveness forum. I'd love top see randomized, double blinded, placebo controlled studies on headphones, amplifiers and DAC's (or lack of...) and of course, cables. And yes, I know sound is very subjective, but we don't even know what percent of individuals would prefer phone X over phone Y. Or, are there certain characteristics or traits which would allow us to predict with a reasonable degree of certainty which individuals would prefer a certain kind of sound or headphones? And who would sponsor unbiased studies? Headphone companies?

Head-Fi can conduct the studies at meets, and we can do perfectly designed listener-blind tests (don't need DBT).

But we need the will. I was fully ready at the NJ Meet with the gear and the experimental protocol, and sheets to record the answers. No takers. I wanted to A/B Predator vs iQube.

 

[jonathanjong]

Two brief comments:

1. Talk of "hearing" and "reality" should be tempered with the reminder that (as wavoman knows very well), there's no direct, unproblematic relationship between perceptual experience (e.g., hearing) and external physical reality (e.g., physical properties of an audio signal). There's a sense in which it's irrelevant whether an alleged improvement in SQ is detectable in the electrical signal or the vibrations in the medium (usually air, unless you're listening underwater....), so long as it's perceivable by the hearer. Of course, problems pop up when we start making recommendations based on such perceptions.

2. There's some discussion on the relationship between the placebo effect and expenditure. The literature on cognitive dissonance suggests that there should be a positive correlation here. However, and perhaps more interestingly, it also suggests that the act of defending (say) an improvement in SQ as a result of cable change should produce "placebo" effects too.

My quick search in the usual places didn't turn up anything directly related to the placebo effect among audiophiles (though I wouldn't mind running a study like this, really), though here's an interesting article:

Perlman, M. (2004). Golder ears and meter readers. Social Studies of Science, Vol. 34, No. 5, 783-807.

P.S.: The social psychological literature is chock full of examples of expectancy (or other "placebo-type" effects) on appreciation of consumer products. Off the top of my head, there's the exp. which showed that the wine labeled as more expensive was consistently perceived as tasting better, and Dougherty & Shanteau's (1999) study on several different products (of different sensory modalities). Actually, that's a good paper to read. Here's a reference:

Dougherty, M. R. P., & Shanteau, J. (1999). Averaging expectancies and perceptual experiences in the assessment of quality. Acta Psychologica, 10(1), 59-67.

 

[flashnolan]

It has been documented that in quite a few cases if the patient thinks he is being given something to help it does - even though they were not given anything.

Since the way we perceive sound is subjective already it is not hard to imagine that if someone thinks it is better it will sound better to them.