[chibicas]

You don’t really believe this, do you?

The cable market is there all these years because people are willing to spend money on cables. Whether that is because people actually hear a difference or want to believe they hear a difference does not matter. Where there is demand there is usually a supply.

I understand your point but wouldn't that apply for fads and ponzi schemes? In a situation where the product is hyped and doesn't promise what they deliver is when a market dies no? You cant possibly be suggesting a small group of audio cable believers are keeping the market alive. Going to your point, how would demand be possibly kept up with lies and advertising throughout the years? I will admit, I dont know how long the cable market has been alive for but it can't have possibly been less than 5 years. Products usually speak for themselves and will stand the test of time if they are truly of value.

I would understand if consumers were placed under a placebo effect and no one did research to check whether claims are false but as iscorpio71 posted, research is done and there is indeed a difference. To my ears at least. So yea. In this situation I would believe that. However that is not to say people should be forced to believe in cables. Im just saying there's enough people who value it and are willing to buy it and to deny that people are hearing differences is wrong to say.

 

[jsmiller58]

I understand your point but wouldn't that apply for fads and ponzi schemes? In a situation where the product is hyped and doesn't promise what they deliver is when a market dies no? You cant possibly be suggesting a small group of audio cable believers are keeping the market alive. Going to your point, how would demand be possibly kept up with lies and advertising throughout the years? I will admit, I dont know how long the cable market has been alive for but it can't have possibly been less than 5 years. Products usually speak for themselves and will stand the test of time if they are truly of value.

I would understand if consumers were placed under a placebo effect and no one did research to check whether claims are false but as iscorpio71 posted, research is done and there is indeed a difference. To my ears at least. So yea. In this situation I would believe that. However that is not to say people should be forced to believe in cables. Im just saying there's enough people who value it and are willing to buy it and to deny that people are hearing differences is wrong to say.

In the audio chain, the most powerful and important component is the brain. If people believe they perceive something, then they do, and very powerfully. Their passion can be infectious and convince others of the same... That does not imply at all any ill intent, malice, or fraud. Not sure why that is where you went with your question...

As to research showing there is a difference? The research and measurements I have seen show minute differences in measurements, some of which are as likely the result of experimental set up errors as anything else. Maybe if you were all sporting massive Viking Weave cables I might grudgingly acknowledge, but that's not what we have here.

Anyway, I respect what you believe. As an electrical engineer for several decades that had to study a fair bit of physics to get his degrees, I can't even wrap my brain around how cables can do what people believe they do. But, as a man of faith believing in things I cannot prove I also have a lot of empathy in your faith.

 

[chibicas]

In the audio chain, the most powerful and important component is the brain. If people believe they perceive something, then they do, and very powerfully. Their passion can be infectious and convince others of the same... That does not imply at all any ill intent, malice, or fraud. Not sure why that is where you went with your question...

As to research showing there is a difference? The research and measurements I have seen show minute differences in measurements, some of which are as likely the result of experimental set up errors as anything else. Maybe if you were all sporting massive Viking Weave cables I might grudgingly acknowledge, but that's not what we have here.

Anyway, I respect what you believe. As an electrical engineer for several decades that had to study a fair bit of physics to get his degrees, I can't even wrap my brain around how cables can do what people believe they do. But, as a man of faith believing in things I cannot prove I also have a lot of empathy in your faith.

I went that way because that's the only way products that don't provide any actual value to a consumer but still have demand survive. It's hard to believe "passion" alone creates demand. What makes products and businesses survive are good business plans and if people willing to value a product. Think about the resources and money spent to start a business. If businesses were built on passion alone I would quit my job and start a business but that's not how it works. That's just creating another job, not a lucrative way of making money.

In my case no one convinced me to buy cables. It was a whim, I was perfectly happy with my AE 10th but didnt want another IEM so I bought a cable to double down on what I already have. No ads, no random guy on the internet telling me to buy this expensive cable, it was me trying different cables in Japan. I saw the value itself without any "passion" but the product itself. That's what I bought into.

That being said I do appreciate your replies and your respect to what I believe. You being an electrical engineer, I would appreciate more posts from you and Id be happy to read more on what you might say going forward.

 

[iscorpio71]

I went that way because that's the only way products that don't provide any actual value to a consumer but still have demand survive. It's hard to believe "passion" alone creates demand. What makes products and businesses survive are good business plans and if people willing to value a product. Think about the resources and money spent to start a business. If businesses were built on passion alone I would quit my job and start a business but that's not how it works. That's just creating another job, not a lucrative way of making money.

In my case no one convinced me to buy cables. It was a whim, I was perfectly happy with my AE 10th but didnt want another IEM so I bought a cable to double down on what I already have. No ads, no random guy on the internet telling me to buy this expensive cable, it was me trying different cables in Japan. I saw the value itself without any "passion" but the product itself. That's what I bought into.

That being said I do appreciate your replies and your respect to what I believe. You being an electrical engineer, I would appreciate more posts from you and Id be happy to read more on what you might say going forward.

May I ask, which cable did you pair Penon's 10AE?

 

[MickBenjamins]

I enjoy the cable talk. Personally, I'm not a believer that cable changes the sound we get all the graphs for IEMS, did anyone ever do graphs with different cables?). Once I personally experience the effects of a cable, then I'll believe it.

That said, I do buy different cables, but thats mostly because of looks and feeling. I ordered the TANSIO MIRAI X 10th Anniversary, and ordered the Eletech Cassiel with it. Not because I think it will change the sound, but because it looks sexy

I hope I dont hear a difference to the stock cable... because if I hear a difference, then a whole new rabbit hole opens up, and god knows how much money that is going to cost me

 

[MickBenjamins]

Also, I just logged into my Penon account, and see my order has the status 'shipped' even though I did not get a shipping confirmation email, not is there a tracking number in my account...

 

[thaslaya]

Also, I just logged into my Penon account, and see my order has the status 'shipped' even though I did not get a shipping confirmation email, not is there a tracking number in my account...

Penon came back from New Year break and just said F it. My order from 3 weeks ago still in "Processing" status

 

[Wil]

Also, I just logged into my Penon account, and see my order has the status 'shipped' even though I did not get a shipping confirmation email, not is there a tracking number in my account...

Same here. Dropped them an email to ask for the tracking number...let's see if they reply.

 

[Mikerules]

Penon came back from New Year break and just said F it. My order from 3 weeks ago still in "Processing" status

Same here

 

[DagsJT]

I emailed them yesterday about my TSMR-X order placed on 6th Feb and they replied saying it’ll be shipped out by Sunday.

 

[dharmasteve]

You don’t really believe this, do you?

The cable market is there all these years because people are willing to spend money on cables. Whether that is because people actually hear a difference or want to believe they hear a difference does not matter. Where there is demand there is usually a supply.

I enjoy the cable talk. Personally, I'm not a believer that cable changes the sound we get all the graphs for IEMS, did anyone ever do graphs with different cables?). Once I personally experience the effects of a cable, then I'll believe it.

That said, I do buy different cables, but thats mostly because of looks and feeling. I ordered the TANSIO MIRAI X 10th Anniversary, and ordered the Eletech Cassiel with it. Not because I think it will change the sound, but because it looks sexy

I hope I dont hear a difference to the stock cable... because if I hear a difference, then a whole new rabbit hole opens up, and god knows how much money that is going to cost me

Do graphs measure timbre, tone? Why, factually, according to well known reviewers, like HBB, do IEMs with the same FR graphs and resistance/sensitivity.....sound different. Why do the de-facto and unknown differences happen. Not a trick question....I would really like to know. Also I do hear a difference between my 2 pure silver cables and two pure copper according the textbook silver and copper sounds. I'm open to it being placebo, but I do have concentrations and noticing's gleaned from years of meditation practices and I hear very clear differences.

 

[Sheeno101]

Audiophiles typically start out as cable deniers because it doesn't seem believable wire could affect your listening experience. Many eventually experience an epiphany when a particular cable alters what they hear more radically than they deemed possible, often they'll struggle to rationalise the experience & fumble for a scientific explanation.

However it's also true many audiophiles barely hear any differences between cables. You may be surprised how many hobbyists have fairly poor hearing, despite loving music & being willing to spend thousands on their system. Some folks are also colourblind - should I be forced to pretend colours don't exist? I think not.

As always, the best advice in this hobby is to trust your ears.

It's funny how it all comes down to a very old philosophical argument of whether or not we should trust our senses. In my view, there is more than enough evidence (which I don't have to struggle or fumble to rationalise) which shows we shouldn't trust our senses. But I understand the alternative perspective, which is that in a hobby centred on sensory pleasure, why trust anything else?

To be clear, it's not like I've never heard a difference from a cable. When I first got my hands on a silver/palladium cable, that treble sounded pristine, and when I swapped to a copper cable, it all sounded so much warmer. However, I am sceptical of my senses, so if I was going to trust them for my purchasing decisions going forwards, I wanted these changes to be reproducible - and after weeks of A/B comparisons between OCC copper, OFC copper, "oil-soaked copper", various types of copper/silver combinations, pure silver/palladium, some gold-plated, some with graphene thrown in, and a plethora of different core, strand etc. variations, I found any differences were not. And the more I did comparisons, the less frequent perceived changes became, showing the influence of cognitive processing. Not to mention the amount of times I thought to myself along the way, "Wow - I really think this silver/palladium cable is bringing out those highs", looked down and realised I'd done so many swaps I was actually listening to a pure copper cable!

I guess the middle-ground we can agree on is we should trust our senses - but it's important to recognise our senses are imperfect, so make sure you give them a rigorous testing before you do. After you've done that, you can see where on this subjective topic you lie - and I'm sure many cable-believers here have done just that, else there wouldn't be such strong opinions on the topic.

 

[chibicas]

May I ask, which cable did you pair Penon's 10AE?

I got the ORB Clear Force Nova 2nd Gen Custom. The stock cable felt like it could be more, the rumble was nice but too forward sounding and it didn't sound spacious enough. The Clear Force Novas had exactly that, it still had that nice bass rumble while increasing the sound stage a bit. But this was my first cable and the start of this whole thing aha. Now a cable believer I had to try Penon's cables so I bought the Penon Space Cable and the Bass Cable and man. I spent about the same for each of those cables but Penon's cables sounded marginally better. After spending a good few hours comparing, Penon's cables had notably bigger sound stage, note weight and detail. The Space Cable having an edge with sound stage and instrument separation and the Bass Cable having an edge in warmth and note weight. All overall much better than my Clear Force Nova. I ended up using the Space Cable for the 10th but I recently got the G4 for the Tansio X... I should try the G4 on the 10th but that comparison is still in queue when I have time aha. I will admit to Sheeno's101 post above, there were times where I spent so much time comparing that I got overwhelmed doubting myself in some changes and as mentioned our senses are imperfect. But I had to come back after a break and re-evaluate, once I did I heard a notable difference.

​

 

[dharmasteve]

It's funny how it all comes down to a very old philosophical argument of whether or not we should trust our senses. In my view, there is more than enough evidence (which I don't have to struggle or fumble to rationalise) which shows we shouldn't trust our senses. But I understand the alternative perspective, which is that in a hobby centred on sensory pleasure, why trust anything else?

To be clear, it's not like I've never heard a difference from a cable. When I first got my hands on a silver/palladium cable, that treble sounded pristine, and when I swapped to a copper cable, it all sounded so much warmer. However, I am sceptical of my senses, so if I was going to trust them for my purchasing decisions going forwards, I wanted these changes to be reproducible - and after weeks of A/B comparisons between OCC copper, OFC copper, "oil-soaked copper", various types of copper/silver combinations, pure silver/palladium, some gold-plated, some with graphene thrown in, and a plethora of different core, strand etc. variations, I found any differences were not. And the more I did comparisons, the less frequent perceived changes became, showing the influence of cognitive processing. Not to mention the amount of times I thought to myself along the way, "Wow - I really think this silver/palladium cable is bringing out those highs", looked down and realised I'd done so many swaps I was actually listening to a pure copper cable!

I guess the middle-ground we can agree on is we should trust our senses - but it's important to recognise our senses are imperfect, so make sure you give them a rigorous testing before you do. After you've done that, you can see where on this subjective topic you lie - and I'm sure many cable-believers here have done just that, else there wouldn't be such strong opinions on the topic.

What is reality? I recommend "Practical Ethics and Profound Emptiness: A Commentary on Nagarjuna's Precious Garland" Khensur Jampa Tegchok (There is a Kindle Edition)

Can be mind/life changing

​

 

[iscorpio71]

I got the ORB Clear Force Nova 2nd Gen Custom. The stock cable felt like it could be more, the rumble was nice but too forward sounding and it didn't sound spacious enough. The Clear Force Novas had exactly that, it still had that nice bass rumble while increasing the sound stage a bit. But this was my first cable and the start of this whole thing aha. Now a cable believer I had to try Penon's cables so I bought the Penon Space Cable and the Bass Cable and man. I spent about the same for each of those cables but Penon's cables sounded marginally better. After spending a good few hours comparing, Penon's cables had notably bigger sound stage, note weight and detail. The Space Cable having an edge with sound stage and instrument separation and the Bass Cable having an edge in warmth and note weight. All overall much better than my Clear Force Nova. I ended up using the Space Cable for the 10th but I recently got the G4 for the Tansio X... I should try the G4 on the 10th but that comparison is still in queue when I have time aha. I will admit to Sheeno's101 post above, there were times where I spent so much time comparing that I got overwhelmed doubting myself in some changes and as mentioned our senses are imperfect. But I had to come back after a break and re-evaluate, once I did I heard a notable difference.

​

Thanks! That first cable name is a mouthful.

I'm currently waiting for, like six cables