The Official Sony MDR-Z1R Flagship Headphone Thread (Live From IFA 2016)
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Jun 23, 2017 at 10:10 AM Post #11,011 of 11,341
Honestly, I do think that Tyll is a bit harsh on his review of the Z1R. He should have given some credits for its rather good sense of soundstage for being a closed headphones. Still, some people really do prefer tonality above anything else and IMO that's fine also. I personally think that the Z1R is still overpriced compared to older Sony's flagship such as the CD3000 & SA5000 (with cable upgraded). Then again, everything is overpriced these days. With the right amp, I still give the best bang for buck title to the HD800.
 
Jun 23, 2017 at 10:13 AM Post #11,012 of 11,341
Yes, and one thing I forgot to mention in my previous post, was that those debates were active back in the 1970s, but not so today. Why? Because by and large, modern speakers no longer exhibit those sound qualities. They tend to be more neutral, more "colorless" than speakers of that era. Maybe they are more "boring" to use Amo's term. And, unlike headphones, most people do not buy multiple pairs of speakers to listen to depending on their mood. Some of that is driven by Toole's and Olive's research, which showed that speakers with flat frequency response were also also the most subjectively pleasing (and hence likely to sell). As Toole's analogy put it, viewing a picture under white light is more pleasing to more people than viewing it under colored lights. So, my guess is, the headphone market will eventually move the same way, driven by the same forces as the speaker market.

So, my argument is two-fold. 1) a reviewer's job is to describe the sound of a component, and make a judgment about it. If he doesn't feel it does a good job, or if he feels it is overprice, he should say so. 2) a reviewer should be biased against ANY sound signature (colored light) in favor of NO sound signature (white light), as best they can judge it. Because, that gives the best chance of REPRODUCING what the artist intended. That is obviously, and inherently, a subjective judgment, and objective measurements are, at best, only supportive, not definitive. But, as I mentioned in a previous post, there does seem to be broad general subjective agreement on various headphone's and speaker's deviations from the ideal. If you want your headphones to produce YOUR version of the music that's your right. I prefer headphones that come closest to reproducing the musician's version of the music. That's my position and I'm sticking to it.

Yes the reviewer should definately say that red light is used and that this results in this and that effect and that he does not like that and would have preffered white light. Savaging a product and stating it is neccesary to do so in order to protect the consumers from the product is in my opinion taking it several steps too far.
 
Jun 23, 2017 at 10:36 AM Post #11,013 of 11,341
...

So, my argument is two-fold. 1) a reviewer's job is to describe the sound of a component, and make a judgment about it. If he doesn't feel it does a good job, or if he feels it is overprice, he should say so. 2) a reviewer should be biased against ANY sound signature (colored light) in favor of NO sound signature (white light), as best they can judge it. Because, that gives the best chance of REPRODUCING what the artist intended. That is obviously, and inherently, a subjective judgment, and objective measurements are, at best, only supportive, not definitive. But, as I mentioned in a previous post, there does seem to be broad general subjective agreement on various headphone's and speaker's deviations from the ideal. If you want your headphones to produce YOUR version of the music that's your right. I prefer headphones that come closest to reproducing the musician's version of the music. That's my position and I'm sticking to it.
My question to you would be: how do you know what you hear is indeed what the artist intended? Can those phones replicate the exact timbre of all instruments used in that piece of music?
Please pardon my ignorance, is there a pair of hp that can produce that exact timbre produced by instruments?
If such a pair of hp do exists, then I will concede that what I am hearing is indeed what an artist has intended for me to hear.
I do not need my $2599 z1r to produce that type of sterile sound. I like it the way it is. Engaging, intoxicating and easy to listen.
 
Jun 23, 2017 at 11:31 AM Post #11,015 of 11,341
I'll review the review of the review. :scream:
 
Jun 23, 2017 at 11:48 AM Post #11,017 of 11,341
My question to you would be: how do you know what you hear is indeed what the artist intended? Can those phones replicate the exact timbre of all instruments used in that piece of music?
Please pardon my ignorance, is there a pair of hp that can produce that exact timbre produced by instruments?
If such a pair of hp do exists, then I will concede that what I am hearing is indeed what an artist has intended for me to hear.
I do not need my $2599 z1r to produce that type of sterile sound. I like it the way it is. Engaging, intoxicating and easy to listen.

Well, obviously that is to some extent a judgment call. However, as I mentioned, there does seem to be a broad (but not unanimous) consensus about the coloration of a number of TOTL headphones - e.g., the HD800 and SR009 are on the analytical side of neutral, the HD650 and SR007 Mk I are on the warm side of neutral - they tilt one way or another from the ideal. Since Tyll, for example, fits within that consensus, my conclusion is that his judgments of headphone "tilt", if you will, are close to the consensus. Most recordings are made using speakers, not headphones as the playback transducer. I think the majority of monitor speakers these days are relatively flat in terms of frequency response, or are equalized to be relatively flat. Again, what is "flat" is to some degree a judgment call - for example, Bob Katz, a respected mastering engineer, says that he adjusts his reference speakers to be subjectively flat based on a selection of around 50 recordings made with different microphones, etc. Those recordings include some of his own, and since he was there at the recording session, he probably has a better grasp on what they should sound like than most. One reason the BBC series of monitor speakers are legendary is that the persons who engineered them were able to do live-vs-recorded testing when they were designing them.

Since headphones will never sound like the original in terms of imaging (nobody has ever fit a singer, let alone an orchestra, inside their head), we have to judge on other grounds - detail reproduction, coherence, and yes, frequency response among them. If a headphone tonally sounds like the original (not too bright, not too warm, no nasal or other coloration) then it is relatively neutral. That's probably the best we can do. To some extent it's a circular argument, because we make our judgment of recording neutrality based on listening to recordings on speakers or headphones, the recording uses microphones, and none of these, mics, speakers, headphones, or recordings, are perfect. Sometimes using an imperfect recording is useful, for example, I have a recording on both LP and CD, and compared to the LP the violin sound on the CD sounds a bit shrill and "acid", so if a headphone (for example, the Stax SR007 MK I) makes that recording sound less shrill, then I conclude that the headphone is on the warm side.

Now, if you have a copy of the original Stereophile test CD, one of the tracks has the late J. Gordon Holt reading one of his articles, as recorded by a variety of microphones. As you listen to it, you will notice how noticeably the timbre of his voice changes depending on the microphone. One test that you can do yourself is to take a condenser microphone that is relatively flat (Sony makes some good, inexpensive electret condenser mics) and record the voices of some people you know well, e.g. family members, then play it back on your speakers or headphones and compare it to the sound of the original person. That won't cover the deep bass or highest highs, but will give you a fair take on what sounds neutral. If a headphone makes Julie Andrews sound like Ethel Merman, it's wrong, no matter how much of an Ethel Merman fan you may be.

Finally, you seem to assume that a neutral transducer will sound sterile. To the contrary, a sterile transducer is not neutral - it subtracts from the original. A neutral transducer should convey all the emotion and beauty of the original, no more, no less. That's the goal. Part of that is conveying the timbre of the original - a singer on a recording should sound like they do in live performance, not deeper, or lighter, or like they have a chest cold, or like they're spitting into the microphone, etc. And my contention is, that a subjectively flat frequency response allows that to happen more frequently for more people than a subjectively non-flat frequency response, no matter how pleasant that may sound for some. And that is supported by Toole and Olive's research.
 
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Jun 23, 2017 at 12:12 PM Post #11,019 of 11,341
One test that you can do yourself is to take a condenser microphone that is relatively flat (Sony makes some good, inexpensive electret condenser mics) and record the voices of some people you know well, e.g. family members, then play it back on your speakers or headphones and compare it to the sound of the original person. That won't cover the deep bass or highest highs, but will give you a fair take on what sounds neutral. If a headphone makes Julie Andrews sound like Ethel Merman, it's wrong, no matter how much of an Ethel Merman fan you may be.

That would be an interesting test indeed. Any recommendations for specific microphones?
 
Jun 23, 2017 at 12:47 PM Post #11,021 of 11,341
Wait, so now some folks are critiquing the Z1Rs for not being "neutral"? We didn't need Tyll or Jude's data to tell us that did we? :p

As mentioned, these are my favourite closed-back headphones. I really enjoy them for the fun experiences I have when I listen to them. As purk mentioned, outstanding soundstage for a closed headphone, plus great bass that hits hard and is very well detailed. I really liked my (now sold) TH-900s for a similar sound, but the treble on the Fostex's really got to me; while the Z1Rs have a more refined presentation (and the graphs fail to really flesh this out). The other letdown I had with the TH-900s was their poor ability to isolate ambient noise and the Sony's are very good at this. So for me, I am a happy camper. No headphone gets a 100% Rotten Tomatoes score...but based on the reviews I've read on the Z1Rs, they still have a very strong "fresh" score overall. And in the end, what matters most is that I really like them. :)
 
Jun 23, 2017 at 12:58 PM Post #11,023 of 11,341
Because, that gives the best chance of REPRODUCING what the artist intended.

What if, what the artist intended, is that the listener enjoy themselves to the maximum extent possible, no matter what that entails, while listening to the music?

What if, there was a study which showed, that was what 90+% of artists intended when making music?

For those that didn't catch it, there is a parallel between 90% of artists wanting listeners to enjoy themselves to the maximum extent, and the roughly 90% individuals who preferred the Harman curve in Harman's listening tests.
 
Jun 23, 2017 at 1:16 PM Post #11,024 of 11,341
your characterisation of folks who take an interest in headphone measurements and trivialisation of headphone frequency response curves is hysterical. and now you're likening the harman target response curve to an omelette - i mean, really?

I think this indignation you have towards comparing the Harman response target to an omelette recipe is revealing in many ways. And it really really speaks to why there is a fundamental problem with the interpretation of many of these objective results.

Speaking broadly, in science, there are two classes of results. One, like gravity, the hydrostatic principle, the general theory of relativity. These are absolute results which tell us how the world works. They don't vary by people, circumstance, or subjective interpretation.

There is another class of results in science, probabilistic/statistical results. These results say things like, 90% of patients who took a certain drug completely recovered after clinic trials. Or, there is a 60% chance of a thunderstorm tomorrow. Or, 85% of individuals found the taste of this omelette pleasing. Or, 90% of listeners preferred the Harman curve.

All of these results are also telling us something about the world. They are objective scientific results. But we wouldn't say that an individual who took the drug in the above clinical trial and didn't recover is "wrong". We wouldn't say that the individual who prefers a different omelette recipe wrong, and we wouldn't call their recipe "flawed".

Fundamentally, the Harman curve tells us that they have confidence that a high number of listeners will prefer the Harman curve. The Harman curve research is based fundamentally on individual listener preferences. And most important of all, fundamentally, where listener preferences diverged from what Harman defined as "totally neutral", those preferences were incorporated into the curve - notably bass and treble distortions to match listener preferences.

I am not "trivializing" headphone frequency response curves, but I am putting them in their proper scientific context, and recognizing the limitations of the expressive power of their conclusions.
 
Jun 23, 2017 at 2:06 PM Post #11,025 of 11,341
Well, obviously that is to some extent a judgment call. However, as I mentioned, there does seem to be a broad (but not unanimous) consensus about the coloration of a number of TOTL headphones - e.g., the HD800 and SR009 are on the analytical side of neutral, the HD650 and SR007 Mk I are on the warm side of neutral - they tilt one way or another from the ideal. Since Tyll, for example, fits within that consensus, my conclusion is that his judgments of headphone "tilt", if you will, are close to the consensus. Most recordings are made using speakers, not headphones as the playback transducer. I think the majority of monitor speakers these days are relatively flat in terms of frequency response, or are equalized to be relatively flat. Again, what is "flat" is to some degree a judgment call - for example, Bob Katz, a respected mastering engineer, says that he adjusts his reference speakers to be subjectively flat based on a selection of around 50 recordings made with different microphones, etc. Those recordings include some of his own, and since he was there at the recording session, he probably has a better grasp on what they should sound like than most. One reason the BBC series of monitor speakers are legendary is that the persons who engineered them were able to do live-vs-recorded testing when they were designing them.

Since headphones will never sound like the original in terms of imaging (nobody has ever fit a singer, let alone an orchestra, inside their head), we have to judge on other grounds - detail reproduction, coherence, and yes, frequency response among them. If a headphone tonally sounds like the original (not too bright, not too warm, no nasal or other coloration) then it is relatively neutral. That's probably the best we can do. To some extent it's a circular argument, because we make our judgment of recording neutrality based on listening to recordings on speakers or headphones, the recording uses microphones, and none of these, mics, speakers, headphones, or recordings, are perfect. Sometimes using an imperfect recording is useful, for example, I have a recording on both LP and CD, and compared to the LP the violin sound on the CD sounds a bit shrill and "acid", so if a headphone (for example, the Stax SR007 MK I) makes that recording sound less shrill, then I conclude that the headphone is on the warm side.

Now, if you have a copy of the original Stereophile test CD, one of the tracks has the late J. Gordon Holt reading one of his articles, as recorded by a variety of microphones. As you listen to it, you will notice how noticeably the timbre of his voice changes depending on the microphone. One test that you can do yourself is to take a condenser microphone that is relatively flat (Sony makes some good, inexpensive electret condenser mics) and record the voices of some people you know well, e.g. family members, then play it back on your speakers or headphones and compare it to the sound of the original person. That won't cover the deep bass or highest highs, but will give you a fair take on what sounds neutral. If a headphone makes Julie Andrews sound like Ethel Merman, it's wrong, no matter how much of an Ethel Merman fan you may be.

Finally, you seem to assume that a neutral transducer will sound sterile. To the contrary, a sterile transducer is not neutral - it subtracts from the original. A neutral transducer should convey all the emotion and beauty of the original, no more, no less. That's the goal. Part of that is conveying the timbre of the original - a singer on a recording should sound like they do in live performance, not deeper, or lighter, or like they have a chest cold, or like they're spitting into the microphone, etc. And my contention is, that a subjectively flat frequency response allows that to happen more frequently for more people than a subjectively non-flat frequency response, no matter how pleasant that may sound for some. And that is supported by Toole and Olive's research.
Perhaps, I have a different preference than most.
For example: mikazuki no mai (dance of the crescent moon); zenkoku tai kai (national finals version) . When drums are struck, i like the impact. When the trumpet solo passage arrives, it conveyed the feelings of a young girl in love (otome no kokoro). The trumpet solo has to convey the gentle longings of a young girl and that passage is very hard to pull it off.
On the z1r, it conveyed those feelings. Bass is there. Treble is not overly bright. It's like the engineers have found a good balance point, true to the Japanese sensibility and aesthetic. Combine that with great workmanship by the shokunin (artisans), it's easy to like the z1r.
How about Louis Armstrong what a wonderful world? I could hear his "throaty"" voice sounding slightly different from each word he sang. The z1r did not miss the subtle nuances.
Lindsay Stirling: crystallize. Violins can be piercing to my ears on the wrong type of gear. But z1r didn't make me stop listening to this piece of music.
Let's not forget the female jazz vocals. Sweet. Mesmerizing. Intoxicating. Beautiful. Long thick blonde hair. Beautiful eyes with long eyelashes. Red ruby lips. Oops... Sorry. Got carried away.
Why don't you try the above titles with your favorite hp and see if you get the same sentiments.
Its something that the z1r has got that made owners like it for what it is.
 
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