The Official Sony MDR-Z1R Flagship Headphone Thread (Live From IFA 2016)
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Jun 23, 2017 at 3:55 PM Post #11,026 of 11,341
Perhaps, I have a different preference than most.
For example: mikazuki no mai (dance of the crescent moon); zenkoku tai kai (national finals version) . When drums are struck, i like the impact. When the trumpet solo passage arrives, it conveyed the feelings of a young girl in love (otome no kokoro). The trumpet solo has to convey the gentle longings of a young girl and that passage is very hard to pull it off.
On the z1r, it conveyed those feelings. Bass is there. Treble is not overly bright. It's like the engineers have found a good balance point, true to the Japanese sensibility and aesthetic. Combine that with great workmanship by the shokunin (artisans), it's easy to like the z1r.
How about Louis Armstrong what a wonderful world? I could hear his "throaty"" voice sounding slightly different from each word he sang. The z1r did not miss the subtle nuances.
Lindsay Stirling: crystallize. Violins can be piercing to my ears on the wrong type of gear. But z1r didn't make me stop listening to this piece of music.
Let's not forget the female jazz vocals. Sweet. Mesmerizing. Intoxicating. Beautiful. Long thick blonde hair. Beautiful eyes with long eyelashes. Red ruby lips. Oops... Sorry. Got carried away.
Why don't you try the above titles with your favorite hp and see if you get the same sentiments.
Its something that the z1r has got that made owners like it for what it is.

Well, the problem with using your feelings is that they vary from hour to hour and day to day. I was at a concert once where I was mesmerized, while a woman several chairs down started tapping her feet impatiently and looking at her watch. Same music, some people get it and some don't. On the violins, some recordings ARE shrill, you can opt for hearing that shrillness or you can opt for something that takes away the shrillness. Your choice. But recognize that opting for the latter also can take away from the enjoyment of a well-recorded violin.

I would make a lousy critic because if I like the music I like it on pretty much anything, including an AM radio. Also, I know how much live music varies - I was at a concert in Boston Symphony Hall decades ago, at the rear of the balcony, where for some reason or other the orchestra sounded like it was covered with a blanket - no highs whatsoever. But it was live music, so it was what it was. I play the piano and when I was looking for one, I found that every piano sounded different and played different. Do I enjoy better reproduction more? You bet, But if you like it, you like it, and I certainly am not going to convince you otherwise, nor should I try. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
 
Jun 23, 2017 at 7:38 PM Post #11,027 of 11,341
So, my argument is two-fold. 1) a reviewer's job is to describe the sound of a component, and make a judgment about it. If he doesn't feel it does a good job, or if he feels it is overprice, he should say so. 2) a reviewer should be biased against ANY sound signature (colored light) in favor of NO sound signature (white light), as best they can judge it. Because, that gives the best chance of REPRODUCING what the artist intended. That is obviously, and inherently, a subjective judgment, and objective measurements are, at best, only supportive, not definitive. But, as I mentioned in a previous post, there does seem to be broad general subjective agreement on various headphone's and speaker's deviations from the ideal. If you want your headphones to produce YOUR version of the music that's your right. I prefer headphones that come closest to reproducing the musician's version of the music. That's my position and I'm sticking to it.

I'm going to disagree. The job of a reviewer is to express, as much as they are able, the nature and capabilities of the product they are reviewing and put it in context of what else is available. Their agreement or disagreement with the approach of the manufacturer and the result should be expressed separately. Ideally they should have a good awareness of the wants and needs of the people who may buy the product, so that they can point out potential good and bad aspects of the design or sound signature that potential buyers can determine if the product will suit them or not.

The whole "as the artist intended" thing is a red herring. The "artist" is most often the recording and/or mastering engineer. Singers are often in a box in the studio. Electronic and dance music? Quite a bit I have wasn't mastered with enough bass. As someone pointed out, sitting at the back of the hall the orchestra can sound very dull. Then if we add the complex acoustics of the ear at close range then we're basically talking about the impossible (though AKG's NQ90s attempt to get around this, at the expense of detail retrieval). If the only music we were listening to was Chesky's binaural recordings, your argument would have full merit. Unfortunately there is a world of music where "neutral" just doesn't work. If you really want your dead neutral, there's a pair of Sony monitoring headphones that will do the job (I forgot the model #) as well as a pair of "monitor" IEMs from their Justear division. Believe me when I say that you wouldn't enjoy listening to music with either.
 
Jun 23, 2017 at 8:30 PM Post #11,028 of 11,341
I'm going to disagree. The job of a reviewer is to express, as much as they are able, the nature and capabilities of the product they are reviewing and put it in context of what else is available. Their agreement or disagreement with the approach of the manufacturer and the result should be expressed separately. Ideally they should have a good awareness of the wants and needs of the people who may buy the product, so that they can point out potential good and bad aspects of the design or sound signature that potential buyers can determine if the product will suit them or not.

The whole "as the artist intended" thing is a red herring. The "artist" is most often the recording and/or mastering engineer. Singers are often in a box in the studio. Electronic and dance music? Quite a bit I have wasn't mastered with enough bass. As someone pointed out, sitting at the back of the hall the orchestra can sound very dull. Then if we add the complex acoustics of the ear at close range then we're basically talking about the impossible (though AKG's NQ90s attempt to get around this, at the expense of detail retrieval). If the only music we were listening to was Chesky's binaural recordings, your argument would have full merit. Unfortunately there is a world of music where "neutral" just doesn't work. If you really want your dead neutral, there's a pair of Sony monitoring headphones that will do the job (I forgot the model #) as well as a pair of "monitor" IEMs from their Justear division. Believe me when I say that you wouldn't enjoy listening to music with either.

I think we'er getting further off topic, but.... I think we both agree that one primary job of a reviewer is to describe what the component sounds like. Where we may disagree is what else a reviewer should include. If we take movie reviews, the critic pretty much always rates what they see, and often in verbiage that sounds fairly absolute, although it is obviously their opinion. So at least in that genre of reviews, an overall opinion, even as simple as thumbs up or thumbs down, is pretty much standard. In any case, in the absence of a review czar, the whole discussion is pretty moot, as an individual critic will put in whatever they want and can get past the editor.

I believe as a general rule that the artist always listens to what he/she/they have recorded, and have the final approval on the recording to be released. Thus, the artist is, at a minimum, passing judgment on the recording/mastering engineer's work and whether it meets their intent. Now, some artists concentrate on their performance much more than the sound itself. But there are stories about the Cleveland Orchestra recordings under George Szell - he used to demand gross boosting of the highs, until an engineer visited his home and discovered that he had placed his AR speakers (which tended to be treble shy to begin with) on the floor behind a couch. There are also stories of a violin soloist who wanted the recording to sound like what they heard at the violin, so the violin was front and center and the orchestra sounded like it was playing from the next county over. Obviously in these cases there was some negotiation with the musician and the recording engineer. And then there are records where the artist is the engineer, choosing and mixing samples to his or her taste. But AFAIK, I don't think that artists come in, record their parts, and let the engineer do all the mixing, EQ, etc, and then release the record without the artists listening to and approving the final mix - that's what I mean by the artist's intent. If you want to consider the engineer as a contributing artist, sure, but he/she is not the one making the music. And again, most recordings are mastered, balanced, and listened to by the artists, on loudspeakers, So tonally, I would think that a headphone that more or less duplicated the tonal balance of a relatively neutral loudspeaker would reflect the intent of the artists.

At least in the past with classical musicians, the musician had the final say, so, yes, "as the artist intended" is a real thing. I know there are several classical recordings that were not approved for release during an artist's lifetime that were released after, when they could no longer object. I imagine the same is true for other genres.

Now I don't listen to dance music, so I am assuming that what you say about their recordings is correct, although I don't know whether that is artist's intent, engineer's fault, or your personal preference. But if it is the latter, I would observe that one thing that modern electronics rarely has, and 1950s electronics always had, are bass and treble controls to modify the music to taste. If more amps had that, or parametric equalizer controls, I surmise that we would have less need to buy multiple transducers to remedy their absence. In other words, variable electronic tone controls is, IMHO, a superior solution to a transducer with a permanent built in tone control. Cheapo car radios have them, so why the hell not?
 
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Jun 23, 2017 at 10:24 PM Post #11,029 of 11,341
Good discussion I reckon. If we take it all into consideration and then think about how the Z1Rs were tuned to sound like Duntech studio monitors, then it gives us very much to consider.
 
Jun 23, 2017 at 10:38 PM Post #11,030 of 11,341
I think this indignation you have towards comparing the Harman response target to an omelette recipe is revealing in many ways. And it really really speaks to why there is a fundamental problem with the interpretation of many of these objective results.

Speaking broadly, in science, there are two classes of results. One, like gravity, the hydrostatic principle, the general theory of relativity. These are absolute results which tell us how the world works. They don't vary by people, circumstance, or subjective interpretation.

There is another class of results in science, probabilistic/statistical results. These results say things like, 90% of patients who took a certain drug completely recovered after clinic trials. Or, there is a 60% chance of a thunderstorm tomorrow. Or, 85% of individuals found the taste of this omelette pleasing. Or, 90% of listeners preferred the Harman curve.

All of these results are also telling us something about the world. They are objective scientific results. But we wouldn't say that an individual who took the drug in the above clinical trial and didn't recover is "wrong". We wouldn't say that the individual who prefers a different omelette recipe wrong, and we wouldn't call their recipe "flawed".

Fundamentally, the Harman curve tells us that they have confidence that a high number of listeners will prefer the Harman curve. The Harman curve research is based fundamentally on individual listener preferences. And most important of all, fundamentally, where listener preferences diverged from what Harman defined as "totally neutral", those preferences were incorporated into the curve - notably bass and treble distortions to match listener preferences.

I am not "trivializing" headphone frequency response curves, but I am putting them in their proper scientific context, and recognizing the limitations of the expressive power of their conclusions.

you're accusing me of indignance? now that's rich given the responses in this thread to a critical review of the z1r. i'm not the least bit indignant, but you have been trivialising objective measurements in general and the Harman target response curve in particular in your posts. just as you have been disparaging "objectivists" so called, who think that objective measurements have a valid role to play in this hobby, while seemingly ignoring the possibility that they may also think the same of subjective impressions.

exactly, the Harman target response curve is the result of objective scientific research. thank you for finally acknowledging that.

your clinical drug trial example is flawed because it is not testing value judgements, it is testing the efficacy of a drug. with regard to your omelette example, that's a matter of personal preference which is subjective as we know. it is pointless to call someone wrong for liking their omelette recipe more than other omelette recipes. however, we could reasonably describe their recipe as flawed if it is prone to ruin.
 
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Jun 24, 2017 at 12:44 AM Post #11,031 of 11,341
Been using this for a couple of weeks now and still at Awe with this headphone + the TA combination.

Anyone has a recommendation of a headphone similar price range but different sound signature to the Z1R ? feels like having some variations.
 
Jun 24, 2017 at 4:32 AM Post #11,032 of 11,341
Been using this for a couple of weeks now and still at Awe with this headphone + the TA combination.

Anyone has a recommendation of a headphone similar price range but different sound signature to the Z1R ? feels like having some variations.

Ether Flows are a similar price but have a fairly different presentation and they are open so better for summer comfort wise. That's the combination I use and love the contrast between the two, not that the Ether Flows lack bass or anything but the presentation overall is more flat. They are both very light and comfortable as well.

Hope that helps :o2smile:
 
Jun 24, 2017 at 9:56 AM Post #11,033 of 11,341
Been using this for a couple of weeks now and still at Awe with this headphone + the TA combination.

Anyone has a recommendation of a headphone similar price range but different sound signature to the Z1R ? feels like having some variations.
Does it need to be closed back? My first thought was the HD800s!
 
Jun 24, 2017 at 10:12 AM Post #11,034 of 11,341
I
Ether Flows are a similar price but have a fairly different presentation and they are open so better for summer comfort wise. That's the combination I use and love the contrast between the two, not that the Ether Flows lack bass or anything but the presentation overall is more flat. They are both very light and comfortable as well.

Hope that helps :o2smile:

yes i've heard good things on the flows as being a good bang for the buck, equally preferred by many alongside the sonys.
 
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Jun 24, 2017 at 12:26 PM Post #11,036 of 11,341
What if, what the artist intended, is that the listener enjoy themselves to the maximum extent possible, no matter what that entails, while listening to the music?

What if, there was a study which showed, that was what 90+% of artists intended when making music?

People do like to assume we are living in the age of Beethoven in 1800s, such that the artist like Beethoven is composing music explicitly to be played on a Streicher fortepiano.

The reality is, that artists exist in the ecosystem and environment they produce for. In the modern world, there is such a disparate amount of audio reproduction equipment, and it is very possible that "what the artist intended" is actually a moving target starting directly from the artist's intent themselves. You can see evidence of this in the way that music is mixed, mastered, and emphasized differently depending on the venue, audience, medium, product, and so on.

To me, that is why the "artist intention" angle is a red herring. We aren't living in a monolithic world where there are a handful of piano makers and all people enjoy music in the same amphitheatre environment.

The artist intention is a rather romantic notion which harkens back to a bygone era that I believe is causing some people to "chase the dragon".
 
Jun 24, 2017 at 4:21 PM Post #11,038 of 11,341
Just a few thoughts that I would like to share after all the arguments over TOTL headphones.
I understand the traditional "purist" high fidelity pursue of the most "accurate" sound, hifi, flat response, great measurements, "harman curve" etc etc, and to be honest thats what got me started in this hobby in the first place. So I see a lot of people associate Top of the Line (TOTL) specifically within those parameters. And I totally respect that - a lot of people want the most "accurate, perfect measure, balanced headphones. And off course most of the high end headphones try to reach that goal. Totally fair and respect that.

But ---- now lets look at the other side - Not everybody likes or prefer that sound signature no matter how real and accurate it might be to real life etc etc. A lot of people prefer to have some "seasoning" to their music taste.
So what I find interesting that a lot of people automatically assume that if a headphone is TOTL it automatically have to conform to the "ideal purist sound", and if they don't conform to those parameters then they are not worth it.
And here is where I somewhat disagree
- Do bassheads deserve a TOTL bass head headphone at no cost - In my opinion a total yesssss, If a basshead is willing to go a spend 4k on the best basshead headphone, who are we to questions the cost of the headphone. As long as the Bassheads think is the best lol
Same to the V sound or Warm Sound lovers - Do they deserve a TOTL headphone that fit their tastes - Off course they totally deserve the best V headphone in the world. Or the best wam sounding headphone in the world.

Within those parameters, I think, I would like to see reviewers use those parameters to describe the headphones. But I understand, not all will do that, and they may have a type of listener preference in mind when doing reviews. But we have to remember unlike other audio equipment, headphones is the most personal of all.
In summary, in my opinion TASTE matters, no matter how different that maybe from traditional hifi parameters.

Just some food for thought
 
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Jun 24, 2017 at 6:10 PM Post #11,039 of 11,341
Been using this for a couple of weeks now and still at Awe with this headphone + the TA combination.

Anyone has a recommendation of a headphone similar price range but different sound signature to the Z1R ? feels like having some variations.

I agree, just before I had the Z1R I had an 800S and I really liked it. They can be had used for far less than the MSRP and I suspect some stores might be willing to budge off of the MSRP if contacted privately. I know I paid $1200US all included (used, but virtually new). The 800S is a fantastic headphone and I simply boosted the bass up a little, maybe 2-3db at a couple of frequencies and I believe I did a very modest treble cut -2db, but I forget where. For me, the 800S needed the slight bass boost, but once done it was a great headphone. Very detailed, but pleasant I thought, with very fast bass which was a definite plus. As others here I suspect would concur, the 800S is a good compliment to the Z1R, as is the Ether Flow I'm sure.
 
Jun 24, 2017 at 10:04 PM Post #11,040 of 11,341
I agree, just before I had the Z1R I had an 800S and I really liked it. They can be had used for far less than the MSRP and I suspect some stores might be willing to budge off of the MSRP if contacted privately. I know I paid $1200US all included (used, but virtually new). The 800S is a fantastic headphone and I simply boosted the bass up a little, maybe 2-3db at a couple of frequencies and I believe I did a very modest treble cut -2db, but I forget where. For me, the 800S needed the slight bass boost, but once done it was a great headphone. Very detailed, but pleasant I thought, with very fast bass which was a definite plus. As others here I suspect would concur, the 800S is a good compliment to the Z1R, as is the Ether Flow I'm sure.

The 800 S are great. Sennheiser has a pretty tight price grip, almost like Rolex in the watch market, but there are always a few gaps, plus the used market is obviously more dynamic.

I liked the 800 S but they're not right there for my ears. These days the Z1R and some [unmodded] HD800 are what I've been using most of the time.

20170324_182231-01.jpeg


Emphasis on the unmodded. Why? Because sometimes the 6 kHz spike or the drippy woolly bass or whatever the experts tell you is going on isn't really a big problem and it might look a bit crappy in the measurements charts, but if your ears measure it as pure fun, well, that's a win. The HD800+Z1R combo is absolutely awesome. Unmodded 800. What can I say, I'm not 6 kHz/Tyll sensitive. Different ears.

Any of these two Z1R/HD800 separately? No, hmm, mostly not. They both indeed kinda suck a bit, in some ways, but they're also really, really, awesome headphones in other aspects - and if you combine these two swappin' on the right tracks, well, you will be listening with some of the best tools available.

Not the best, no. But they're in the glorious, awesome group of "some of the best". And there's nothing wrong with that. :)

And after a couple of hours listening to these, I have to admit this is the first time I think "Damn, Tyll, you're a deaf moth@$f%er". Which doubly surprises me, because I truly respect the man as a professional; he can definitely listen, but so can I... It's the first ear-opinion clash I've had since forever. Puzzling. But what's fascinating here is the different ways of looking at the Z1R output. Looking forward to learn more, even from people who prefer different things. Those are the ones making us aware of what we never noticed before.

Once again, the hobby would be boring if we all agreed all the time... not that I care of what you m@#$rAs think.. :). Alright, I actually care, I care you bastards, but just trying to make a point here, carry on and enjoy whichever cans you're having more fun with... :o2smile:
 
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