[taktik]

Put the TH610 pads on it and the problem subsides.

https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/FostexTH900mk2TH610Pads.pdf

The effect of the TH610 pads is a bit drastic. The TH500RP pads do the same kind of job, but with more refinement. They may be the better choice for the TH900, and that's the way I use mine.

 

[up late]

Both have peaks at 6kHz...an area that can be dangerously ear-piercing. The Mk2 is worse.

https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/FostexTH900.pdf
https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/FostexTH900mk2.pdf

Put the TH610 pads on it and the problem subsides.

https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/FostexTH900mk2TH610Pads.pdf

that's interesting because the th900mk2 sounded the same as my th900, which I think I know pretty well. not that i'm disputing what the objective measurements indicate.

 

[ChijiroKuro]

Greetings to all from Spain,

Fall in love with these "cans", really. Two weeks for breaking and music is amazing... At first i notice a lag between mid and bass but now everything is there.

A full Ag cable in the "oven":

For Sony´s eyes only:

Thank´s, great community!!!
C.K.
PD: The Nano-Platinum Eclipse is a "must have". I use them with my Audeze´s LCD-4.

 

[buzzlulu]

What does the Nano-Platinum Eclipse do for the Z1R's over the stock balanced cable?

The reason I ask is that I just finished auditioning several cables for my Utopia to use with the WM1Z. Kimber Axios Copper - Axios Copper/Silver - and Wireworld Nano Platinum Silver Eclipse.
In the end - for my Utopia and WM1Z - I went with the Axios Copper. The Wireworld was nice - however the Axios Copper was better imho. I did not like the Axios Copper/Silver even though Kimber puts that above their Copper only version.

On something like the Z1R I have been told that the all silver Wireworld removes some of the "darkness" of these cans?

 

[jscmd2000]

Interesting development... can't wait to see the results of Jude and Tyll's findings.

Someone pointed out and directed me to a recent review of the Shure KSE1500 and was surprised to find a phrase that I have been thinking about, about the Z1R.
https://www.theverge.com/headphone-...shure-kse1500-review-electrostatic-headphones

The reviewer says the sound was too accurate and lacking distortion, as if distortion is a good thing??

When I listen to the Z1R's, they don't sound anything like some of the hp's that are popular these days that are considered well rounded and balanced. My Z1Rs are holding up against my other headphones though, and getting lots of listening time. There are certain tracks I prefer to listen with Z1Rs than my Utopias or Ether Flows. Both the quantity and quality of the bass you get from the Z1Rs are simply unmatched. I can really hear the Japanese paper in the cups, resistor, or whatever you want to call them, adding the kind of distortion and timbre to the base that facilitates imaging and creating this holographic sound stage.

I don't think there is any graphs or measurements that will show this.

 

[ChijiroKuro]

Hi buzzlulu: I know the Wire World Ag OCC cable and sound is a "little more clear" than the blue premium "stock" cable from LCD-4; I read a few post back that an Ag cable maybe a good option for Z1R and I waiting for a "3.5 lock" connectors. I can´t use the cables yet. And I can´t use the stock balanced cable (TRRRS??). I have a M2Tech Marley with "only" XLR 4 pin balanced output (double amplifier).

I will tried to explain more accurate in a near future. Je je...

Have a nice day.
C.K.

 

[AxelCloris]

I agree, I actually asked about the "head fi measurement" rig a few weeks back. I was told that it couldn't be "disclosed" which irritated me...

I'd like to clarify this for everyone who wasn't part of our PM conversation. I was not asked about our measurement rig, I was asked about the future plans for measurements that we take. I don't discuss possible future plans for the site, but had you asked about the rig itself I would have gladly provided information on what we're using in our lab. I'm unsure how you took it that the measurement setup itself "couldn't be disclosed," but for any confusion I apologize.

Edit: If you look at the bottom of the posts where we've linked measurements, there's a list of the gear used in taking those measurements. We do this so we have public documentation of what was used in case our tools change over time, which they have. For example, our earlier measurements (like those seen in the Utopia thread) used the G.R.A.S. 45CA and we've since changed to using the G.R.A.S. 45BB-12 (as seen in this thread). We've never been secretive about the measurement rig itself, we've been sharing that information up front.

 

[Makiah S]

I'd like to clarify this for everyone who wasn't part of our PM conversation. I was not asked about our measurement rig, I was asked about the future plans for measurements that we take. I don't discuss possible future plans for the site, but had you asked about the rig itself I would have gladly provided information on what we're using in our lab. I'm unsure how you took it that the measurement setup itself "couldn't be disclosed," but for any confusion I apologize.

Yea I don't mean to quote you out of context. I apologize for that as well, my question was whether or not the team here at Head Fi will start to compile a large database of measurements for the community here to view. I wasn't able to host or link to an outside source. Which frustrated me, and based on Axel's response it felt as If I was told to "wait for Jude's posts" The future plans of Head Fi shouldn't be a secret, measurements have been discussed and hosted here for years. Who builds a yard stick and doesn't wish to talk about what your going to do with it?

We've lost a lot of the people who knew how to and have been doing them for years, I simply wanted a solution. What I added to my review was to help the community, and it was taken from the community without a alternative being provided. I didn't like that, I understand why the decision was made and I'm happy to see this measurement by Jude! It's the first I've seen, as I don't watch videos much. An I hope that both he and @Tyll Hertsens can work together to get more exposure to more people

My aim here is to help the community, having measurements and subjective impressions have helped me to make MANY well informed and satisfying purchases over the years. An I've been here since 2012, for almost 5 years! I used to spend time on Headroom's old website looking at the Frequency Response graphs they had their. You could even compare two or three! Tyll's posts on InnerFidelity were excellent for helping me learn how to read an interrupt that hard data. For me, being here I've learned how to both read the subjective impressions and compare them with objective measurements. An I think I've done a decent job, as I've not bought anything that SHOCKED me, or really disappointed me in the last few years. I personally, especially when I review always listen first then look at the data.

But when you looking to spend any amount of money, it's good to have both the opinions of people and the hard data,

Edit: If you look at the bottom of the posts where we've linked measurements, there's a list of the gear used in taking those measurements. We do this so we have public documentation of what was used in case our tools change over time, which they have. For example, our earlier measurements (like those seen in the Utopia thread) used the G.R.A.S. 45CA and we've since changed to using the G.R.A.S. 45BB-12 (as seen in this thread). We've never been secretive about the measurement rig itself, we've been sharing that information up front.

Thanks for that, I would have rather gotten that information when I asked about the measurement rig, or rather the "plans" that you guys had. Than be told "It's not something I can share"

That's my aim, is to make sure every one has access to everything, I can't measure gear... not yet I don't have a rig nor the skills/knowledge to do so, and as of lately I have no way of helping people here get to measurements aside from linking out to my blog THEN to another site... which is cumbersome. My criticism of Jude is for using the word "inconsistent" I come out of a background in restaurants. An inconsistent is the nicest most direct way to insult an discredit any restaurant. Consistency in food service is VITAL, if you lack it you will fail. An to throw that word around so lightly... bothered me

Non the less, I hope to see @jude and @Tyll Hertsens working together. An see this thread get back to talking about the MDR Z1R!!! Also @jude I'm REALLY curious how does the MDR Z1R compare to the L3000! I've heard it's a very Bassy Headphone as well, and it was launched around the same price as the MDR Z1R is and it was Audio Technica's Answer to the R10, I'm really curious how the three compare, and if Audio Technica will compete with Sony again for the closed back flagship market...

 

[headr]

Thanks for that, I would have rather gotten that information when I asked about the measurement rig, or rather the "plans" that you guys had. Than be told "It's not something I can share"

Come on, be reasonable. Head Fi isn't going to show it's hand with all of it's future plans when they are still in flux. Along the same lines, you are free to ask Sony what their next big headphone is going to be, but they probably won't share with you. Not because they are being jerks, but because it is probably still in development, it might not go as planned, and there are a bunch of people involved in the details that probably wouldn't take kindly to information being shared on something they are actively working on.

Jude even expressed in the initial post that the plans they have for the site from a measurement perspective have no where near been finalized. He tentatively wanted to share the results in the Z1R and the Z1R alone because he was reasonably confident in those specific results, and he felt it was the right time to inform the community. From all appearances, he is cooperating with everybody involved, including Mr Hertsens.

 

[Tyll Hertsens]

You can call me Tyll. Mr. Hertsens is my dad.

 

[rnros]

No, you missed the point of my post. Whether your measurements are right, wrong, representative or not, it is your approach that is the problem. Rather than first reaching out to Tyll to discuss your findings (as he now is to you, and as any reasonable person would), you instead:

a) presume your data is the one truth
b) fail to carry out enough due diligence to realise that Tyll's measurements are corroborated by multiple other sources
c) proceed to plaster your findings over the front page of Head-Fi, authored in a way as to be a direct confrontation to Innerfidelity's data

Imho, you are trying to position yourself as an authority on measurements, which in and of itself is fine* (you have the expensive gear after all). But you are doing this at the expense of another person who also makes a living out of this stuff. Not cool.

You would have done your readership a far better service if you had worked with Tyll to cross measure your samples before posting your findings, as all we are now left with is confusion over what is going on with this headphone.


* edit: Actually, thinking about it a bit further, it isn't really fine at all. You're in a position to influence thousands of people who may well spend serious money based on what you're putting out there. To earn a position of authority on headphone measurements (and I'm led to believe it is a very complex subject), you should be able to demonstrate that you've built up that knowledge, not least before you start waving around your numbers at far more experienced people elsewhere. You've had the measurement gear for two years, and you must have access to just about every headphone known to man...so presumably you have a database of many, many measurements you've already taken whilst learning the ropes..?

I strongly disagree with your argument. Also your characterization of Jude's motivation.
While your argument is sharply focused, IMHO, your target is self-reflective and not representative of the actual process.

First of all, Tyll has never presented himself as an unassailable pundit, frank and self-authorized yes, but not as an infallible authority.

Tyll's review followed a number of earlier reviews, positive and negative; did you also ask Tyll if he had corroborated or reconciled his results with those previous reviewers?

Jude presented his results in the midst of vigorous and polarized discussion that focused on the actual experience of Z1R users that were unable to reconcile their own experience with Tyll's published assessment. And, it follows that the focus then goes to the measurements. Jude, with care and diplomacy, contributed his findings in the open forum.

There's the key: In the open forum. This process IS the definition of a forum, a place to exchange information and ideas. Always open and available, although the process is more successful with a good measure of diplomacy.

We are not looking for someone to place, or keep, in the pulpit. The process IS competitive, a player rises or falls by their performance, the antithesis of pulpits and infallibility. Indeed, it is all about performance, sharing information, and gathering evidence.

I appreciate the transparency and diplomacy shown by both Tyll and Jude in the process. And, I am enjoying the process as it unfolds. (Hell, the diplomacy itself makes for great entertainment. It is an acquired skill for most, and the only place to develop the skill is in the heat of the battle.)

So, enjoyed reading your well scripted argument but I think you're missing the point. And on Jude's motivation, seriously? Sounds like a nasty cross examination.

 

[TMRaven]

Of course users who populate a particular headphone's respective thread won't be able to reconcile their own experience with somebody else who gave that same headphone a negative review. A headphone develops a loyal fanbase of people who post in its topic, because they grow to like the sound of that headphone, and they enjoy sharing their experience with other users who enjoy the same headphone, rather they're ignorant of its faults or not, or just embrace the colorations or lack thereof of the headphone for what they are. Hypothetically, if I were a an HD800 fan and my review of an LCD-X got posted in the LCD-X topic where I criticize its lack of lower-treble presence and bloated bass, the regulars of the LCD-X thread would be extremely puzzled at my experience.

That is basically my experience with Head-Fi in a nutshell. If some negative review or impression of a headphone gets brought up to that particular headphone's fanbase, it gets questioned until eventually everybody agrees that either that person is wrong or doesn't share their same taste in sound, and eventually the conversation dies down until sometime some later time, when it is brought up again. No headphone or its fanbase is not guilty of this.

The major difference here is that instead of agreeing to disagree on the Z1R's sonic merits or lack thereof, and ignoring the fact that multiple measurements have shown a particular feature (notice I'm not calling it a fault) in the Z1R's sound, Jude is in effect disowning Tyll's measurements and is assuming Tyll has a faulty unit and assuming that his own measurements are more indicative of what a Z1R should sound like (again, completely skipping over the visual evidence of many other measurements on the web that showcase the 9-10khz feature.)

The fact that it's generating action for the two to share their headphones and collaborate in a sense is wonderful, but the way in which it was presented and written is not wonderful at all.

 

[rnros]

@TMRaven
Appreciate the thoughtful response, however, I'm not in agreement with much of what you present. I'll keep it as brief as possible.

Paragraphs 1 and 2 describe human behavior that is, unfortunately, too common. It is an accurate description of cults, hard-core political parties, and... well, any group that requires control and manipulation to hold it's membership. We don't need to go there, and we do expect better behaviour in an open dialogue.

Paragraph 3: For the sake of clarity, the word for the behavior in question is arrogance. Sure, could be interpreted that way... Although, that would be for both Jude and Tyll. I don't see any difference. They are both clear and confident in their assessments, and their evidence. Otherwise, why would they present in the first place? I would rather describe it as confidence and enthusiasm for their work, and not assign a personality flaw to their presentations. In the end, I saw a clear, fair, and intelligent proposal for moving forward.

Paragraph 4, agree with the first statement, disagree with the second.

 

[pedalhead]

@rnros I stand by my original post and I don't want to spam this thread any further on this topic as I think my point has been made, but I do appreciate the thoughtful way you've approached the debate. The forum could use more of that.

 

[rnros]

@rnros I stand by my original post and I don't want to spam this thread any further on this topic as I think my point has been made, but I do appreciate the thoughtful way you've approached the debate. The forum could use more of that.

Thanks for the kind word. Definitely not spam, the dialogue is appreciated.