[Imperfectionist]

I'm nicely chilled, thanks. Especially because this made me laugh quite a bit.

Please stop stirring the pot when things are calming down.
Least that you forget, this is headfi, and Jude can post anything he deems necessary on headfi forums.
What is not necessary is you coming in here and stirring up the honets nest after things have calm down.

 

[Slaphead]

Please chill, Jude is not a full-time journalist yet and is not subject to such ethical conduct.

I've always believed that one should not have to be subject to ethics in order to be ethical.

For clarity that above statement is intended only as a response to that particular post, and is in no way intended to be a commentary on this ongoing debacle. I, like many others, have no horse in this race, other than rubbernecking at the fallout.

 

[ubs28]

Please stop stirring the pot when things are calming down.
Least that you forget, this is headfi, and Jude can post anything he deems necessary on headfi forums.
What is not necessary is you coming in here and stirring up the honets nest after things have calm down.

Why not? I have to agree with this guy that too many assumptions were made and first proper investigation should have been done before calling out Tyll.

 

[Imperfectionist]

Why not? I have to agree with this guy that too many assumptions were made and first proper investigation should have been done before calling out Tyll.

In case your memory fails, both sides made assumptions like the quality of qc, how z1r were mass produced by production lines in China etc.
What we can do is to get back on topic and stop calling the kettle black.

 

[ubs28]

In case your memory fails, both sides made assumptions like the quality of qc, how z1r were mass produced by production lines in China etc.
What we can do is to get back on topic and stop calling the kettle black.

I will quote Jude.

"...that predated the publishing of Tyll's measurements--we'll also assume for the moment that our impressions and measurements are more representative of the MDR-Z1R's that are out in the wild."

Tyll is very open and doesn't assume his measurements are better. He sits down with other reviewers like Bob Katz to investigate where the differences are coming from. He has even put the LCD-4 back on the WoF.

Tyll would have done the same with Jude no doubt.

Anyway I will stop talking about this since this is the Z1R thead rather than Jude vs Tyll.

 

[castleofargh]

also they're both grown ups with an account here, so we probably don't need to talk for them. ^_^

 

[canali]

I also strongly suggest listening to some of the harder to find items if you've the time. EX1000, EX800ST, anything from the old qualia series, etc. Local japanese brands that you can't find in the US - accoustune etc. They're certainly worth a shot, and it's the kinda stuff you tend to remember more.

Thanks for the recommendations

many of us hope that Sony comes out with an updated version of these venerable classics
(ex1000st/ex800st/mdr7550)....for their price pts (esp in used market)
they're sure hard to beat...and in the eyes of many they can out gun iems that are many times more expensive.
the fit is an issue (frankenbolt design) as they're not meant for portable/walk around usage outside
(they're not flush to the ear so on can encounter wind noise).

 

[canali]

I've just returned from reacquainting myself with the z1r and comparing it to the th900mk2. I listened and compared some other cans while I was there, but i'll post my brief impressions of those in their respective threads.

the z1r sounded much as I remembered it, as did the comparison with the th900mk2. I've provided comparative impressions of both here before so all i'll add is that i really like the z1r. it offers what i'm looking for in a closed can - a warmish, relaxed presentation that doesn't mask the details. if the 10khz peak is there then it's not bothersome to me. it is the most comfortable closed can that I've worn and that's important to me in a headphone.

the th900 is brighter, more lively, has greater clarity and more "air" to my ears. I've always found it to be a very engaging can, dynamic and visceral. the midrange is more recessed than the z1r as I hear it, however. I prefer the th900's bass presentation.

the th900 is a closed can that sounds very much like an open one and the z1r sounds like, well, a closed can. they have very different sound signatures and I could happily own both but I won't be, so I have a decision to make.

i know macedonian hero didn't like some treble or zing (he'll chime in hopefully) on the th900mk2 vs the sonys...as in all things YMMV and sound signature preference is sooooo personal.
personally, due to their solid reputation, i'd love to be able to hear them side by side, but can't ...for being a few yrs old they still hold up well...i'm interested in a pair, too, to be frank....heck when they came out, if i'm correct, they were amongst the top priced dynamic cans...man how things have changed price wise (sadly).

 

[Beagle]

I paid $1900 Cdn for the TH-900, ended up regretting that purchase. They barely isolated like closed headphones and the zingy treble really wore on me over the months. With the Z1R, I'm still very happy with that purchase! To me, they are my favourite TOTL closed-back pair of headphones (to date that is and this is libel to change pending future releases).

I found the TH900 treble unbearable after about 15 minutes. Yet there is nothing in Tyll's graph that seem to indicate any sharp peaks at a particular frequency. It's possible that the many small peaks and dips create a sort of raggedness that causes the sonic irritation.

 

[Tyll Hertsens]

No, you missed the point of my post. Whether your measurements are right, wrong, representative or not, it is your approach that is the problem. Rather than first reaching out to Tyll to discuss your findings (as he now is to you, and as any reasonable person would), you instead:

*snip*

* edit: Actually, thinking about it a bit further, it isn't really fine at all. You're in a position to influence thousands of people who may well spend serious money based on what you're putting out there.

Again, I see no problem with Jude publishing what ever he want at will. I too influence many with my posts. Jude has been in the headphone business almost as long as I. Yes, I probably have a lot more experience measuring headphones, but many enthusiasts build a measurement rig (that's not built to any particular standard) and begin to publish their findings immediately---it's their new toy and want to play with it. Jude has done many, many things to forward the activity in his own way---which I disagree with sometimes---but having known the man for decades I can say he does so, from his own perspective, with genuine concern for the activity.

The only problem I have with his original post is that he made some assumptions, likely due to his faith in his very fine measurement set-up. Were it me, rather than settle on one conclusion, I would have tried to lay out a number of possible conclusions and then worked towards narrowing the possibilities with further investigation, but I would have posted the incomplete information. After all, his system might be sweet, but it is a brand new type of head with novel ears. We really don't know how its measurements relate to InnerFidelity and other measurements we are more familiar with. I'm sure he'll be working on that. But the fact remains, there always has to be a first stab at it in public. I'd guess he does have a lot of measurements made already, but my Z1R review provided too good an opportunity to bring his data into view. More power to him.

I did receive an email from him and will be sending him my Z1R for measurements. he'll have both cans and compare as he wishes based on his findings. I'll be asking for the favor to be returned after he's done, and will measure his pair for a listen as well, and will publish my findings. This should be a good start on clearing things up.

Also, Jude, since the HD 800 seems to be one of the most stable headphones, may I ask to see your measurements of the HD 800 for comparison purposes? If you'd like to start a new thread of you and I comparing measurements to begin to develop and provide visibility so folks can begin to get an idea of how these two systems might compare and contrast I'd gladly participate in it.

 

[up late]

I found the TH900 treble unbearable after about 15 minutes. Yet there is nothing in Tyll's graph that seem to indicate any sharp peaks at a particular frequency. It's possible that the many small peaks and dips create a sort of raggedness that causes the sonic irritation.

you're not alone in finding the th900's treble ragged or peaky. many folks have posted similar reactions in the th900 thread. I did too initially and thought it was going to be a deal breaker, but for whatever reason, it ceased to be for me. I didn't find the th900mk2 that I listened to today problematic in that area but it has a brighter presentation than the z1r to my ears. that said, I regard the z1r as having a darkish presentation with treble that is spotlit at times.

 

[Tyll Hertsens]

I found the TH900 treble unbearable after about 15 minutes. Yet there is nothing in Tyll's graph that seem to indicate any sharp peaks at a particular frequency. It's possible that the many small peaks and dips create a sort of raggedness that causes the sonic irritation.

Both have peaks at 6kHz...an area that can be dangerously ear-piercing. The Mk2 is worse.

https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/FostexTH900.pdf
https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/FostexTH900mk2.pdf

Put the TH610 pads on it and the problem subsides.

https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/FostexTH900mk2TH610Pads.pdf

 

[sfoclt]

Also, Jude, since the HD 800 seems to be one of the most stable headphones, may I ask to see your measurements of the HD 800 for comparison purposes? .

Without these sorts of comparisons on Jude's rig, Jude's posts are minimally helpful. We need to see the full plate of comparisons to known products.

 

[TSAVJason]

I appreciate your concern but I think you are barking up the wrong tree, I'm not the one who keeps insisting people they over-paid for an under-performing headphone in an owner's thread. I'm also only merely asking that person to quantify his opinion, that is not what I would consider chastising.
If you state a fairly pointed opinion (that the headphone is overpriced in the owner's thread), you should expect your opinion to be challenged, and either you are prepared to defend it, or you keep your mouth shut in the first place. You can't drop a bombshell by knowing that you would offend a good majority of the people in thread (by implying they don't know any better and overpaid for under performing gear because another OEM won't make THAT mistake of making poor gear) and then throw up your hand and call foul and say people can't rebut it and must respect that opinion. That's having one's cake and eating it too.

But he says he bought the cans in Singapore at $2500 or so dollars. (If I recall correctly) That means about $1800-$1900 USD. That's a fair price don't you think?

 

[Makiah S]

Without these sorts of comparisons on Jude's rig, Jude's posts are minimally helpful. We need to see the full plate of comparisons to known products.

I agree, I actually asked about the "head fi measurement" rig a few weeks back. I was told that it couldn't be "disclosed" which irritated me... I can't link to measurements and HF doesn't have any one offering anything any more... so I guess let's just deny objective to everyone

Little did I know that Jude has something up his sleeve, but given... how deviated his measurements are again'st the larger pool of objective data... I too would like to see a thread with both Jude and Tyll working together to compare their data. Having Tyll's experince in the field, combined with Judes "high tech" system, both working together to present their findings only benefits us. Discussions of why the HATS is so much better than everything else, and discrediting the existing data pool doesn't help any of us