[Whitigir]

Lol...you knock on Plastic vs you knock on Silk...which one give off more sounds ?

 

[thanatosguan]

Lol...you knock on Plastic vs you knock on Silk...which one give off more sounds ?

... this discussion is quickly approaching voodoo level of physics so I'll stop now.
 
Your everyday plastic objects are not made with LCP...
 
If we're going to operate with this kind of methodology...
 
Try using your knife on a piece of cloth or vegetable or paper vs using it on steel, which one can you cut through?
 
I suppose we're going to say, Kevlar bullet vests are snake-oils now since they're all fiber.
 
And so you're saying Mr. Nageno and Mr. Shiomi are both lying on LCP's measurable physical characteristics of internal loss and acoustic velocity? If so i'd say start a class-action lawsuit on Sony.

 

[OG10]

Are there any full reviews of this out yet?
 
Tempted to snag this off amazon and run on the Chord Mojo

 

[Libertad]

The PM function on headfi is a fantastic way for this material discussion to continue and allow for the thread to be on topic. Its killing two birds with one stone and everybody wins.

 

 

[purk]

   
But isn't that comparison based on different headphones? I think it's far more accurate to say, R10, Q010 and Z1R doesn't sound the same. A huge amount of that can be attributed to tuning differences.

Certainly true, but then the Q010 & Z1R should sound nearly identical correct given that both should have a resonant free housing.  Basically, it is just a matter of what the driver element that we are hearing in this particular case.  

 

[Whitigir]

... this discussion is quickly approaching voodoo level of physics so I'll stop now.

Your everyday plastic objects are not made with LCP...

If we're going to operate with this kind of methodology...

Try using your knife on a piece of cloth or vegetable or paper vs using it on steel, which one can you cut through?

I suppose we're going to say, Kevlar bullet vests are snake-oils now since they're all fiber.

And so you're saying Mr. Nageno and Mr. Shiomi are both lying on LCP's measurable physical characteristics of internal loss and acoustic velocity? If so i'd say start a class-action lawsuit on Sony.

Lol, have you ever personally destroyed a LCP to witness it ? I have. Hell, you don't even need to, just wear Z7 on your ears, press both cups L-R at the same time very quickly and hear it yourself

 

[Mediahound]

  Are there any full reviews of this out yet?
 
Tempted to snag this off amazon and run on the Chord Mojo

Wow, in the UK it's available on Amazon and the equivalent of under US $2100. 
 
It's not even available here in the USA at all yet. 

 

[thanatosguan]

Lol, have you ever personally destroyed a LCP to witness it ? I have. Hell, you don't even need to, just wear Z7 on your ears, press both cups L-R at the same time very quickly and hear it yourself

I don't hear anything other than the pads. That is definitely not the diaphragm making sound.
 
How is directly knocking on it a good measurement of rigidity or acoustic velocity? You know these things are very complicated material science right? I remember someone posted a chart with Beryllium in it which had its acoustic velocity in it. That's why I asked thatonenoob to see if Sony can respond to that, in a purely material science basis, or concede defeat, which he did ask and Mr. Nageno showed him explicitly that LCP and biocell outperforms Beryllium in terms of internal loss and acoustic velocity. You're directly contradicting him on a statement easily verifiable with material science. The only way to determine who is wrong is to obtain measurements of LCP to see if it's really that bad.
 
If you have any concrete scientific data regarding LCP's rigidity, acoustic velocity, please share. Otherwise posting about you knocking or touching it and hearing a sound doesn't really qualify as a meaningful measurement.

 

[The Life]

I just came back from grocery shopping with the Z1Rs on. I couldn't bring myself to take them off while leaving home so I plugged them into my AK100II and went out. The isolation is much better than I had thought, definitely better than the TH series, and the AK100II drove them with more authority than I had expected.

As great as a limited-edition open-backed Z1R with high impedance and delicate futuristic drivers would have been for audiophiles, I don't think a company in Sony's current position can afford to spend the sort of R&D money they must have spent on the Z1R, only to create a "flagship" HP that would appeal to a very limited number of potential buyers. While I acknowledge that few people would be as foolish as me to walk around NYC with the Z1Rs on, the possibility and high feasibility of doing that is a huge selling point. Simply put, there are way more buyers who would not even consider the Z1R if it were open than there are buyers who would not even consider it because it is closed.

Mind you, this specific calculation really only applies to Sony because of its size, brand, and financial position, for better or for worse. Smaller companies can profitably make a niche audiophile flagship. Sony, at this point in time, probably can't. To my ears, the Z1R is as good a compromise as can be hoped for with these constraints: a closed-back HP with a somewhat bassy tuning but still with the openness, timbre, and resolution of TOTL audiophile HPs.

 

[Whitigir]

Well, enjoy your Z1R. I know I am not the only one who is disappointed as of why Sony did not use Bio-cellulose or Nano-composite on the Z1R. I will stop bringing in materials debates here. Let's hear more impression. Also, don't take me wrong, I like Z7, the reason why I am following the Z1R impressions.

 

[thanatosguan]

Well, enjoy your Z1R. I know I am not the only one who is disappointed as of why Sony did not use Bio-cellulose or Nano-composite on the Z1R. I will stop bringing in materials debates here. Let's hear more impression. Also, don't take me wrong, I like Z7, the reason why I am following the Z1R impressions.

 
What bothers me is the bad science involved here. There's already enough crazy talk in audio... we don't need more.
 
There's a real chance that we'll never be able to know the acoustic velocity and rigidity properties of all of Sony's fancy driver technology since most of them are proprietary technology. We need concrete data that came out of lab to understand what's really going on here instead of judging with our ears that are highly susceptible to all kinds of bias and environmental issues(try it out at audiocheck.net and see if you can consistently pass 3-way blind test all the time).
 
Before any concrete data is present all we have is the interview of Mr.Nageno on this matter and it's his word against yours.

 

[thanatosguan]

I just came back from grocery shopping with the Z1Rs on. I couldn't bring myself to take them off while leaving home so I plugged them into my AK100II and went out. The isolation is much better than I had thought, definitely better than the TH series, and the AK100II drove them with more authority than I had expected.

As great as a limited-edition open-backed Z1R with high impedance and delicate futuristic drivers would have been for audiophiles, I don't think a company in Sony's current position can afford to spend the sort of R&D money they must have spent on the Z1R, only to create a "flagship" HP that would appeal to a very limited number of potential buyers. While I acknowledge that few people would be as foolish as me to walk around NYC with the Z1Rs on, the possibility and high feasibility of doing that is a huge selling point. Simply put, there are way more buyers who would not even consider the Z1R if it were open than there are buyers who would not even consider it because it is closed.

Mind you, this specific calculation really only applies to Sony because of its size, brand, and financial position, for better or for worse. Smaller companies can profitably make a niche audiophile flagship. Sony, at this point in time, probably can't. To my ears, the Z1R is as good a compromise as can be hoped for with these constraints: a closed-back HP with a somewhat bassy tuning but still with the openness, timbre, and resolution of TOTL audiophile HPs.

I don't know about headphones but their amplifier technology trickled down (or up?) into their biotechnology division. Their medical division is also having a blast. If you've bought Sony stock at their low point around 2013, which was 9$ for very long time, you're gonna be enjoying a nice profit by now ;p
 
That was around the time they sold VAIO and I knew their stock was heavily undervalued.

 

[beowulf]

Thinking of buying these from Amazon UK to be delivered to Chicago. Prime member for US amazon, but never bought anything from U.K. Amazon.

Anybody know the return policy from U.K. Amazon if deliverd in the States?

 
It's the same I would say. You can ask support but they don't care about countries, same policy applies.
 

   
It's China, where without strict supervision and management most things are just done at "er, good enough, who cares" level. 

 
Can confirm
Source: Read "Poorly made in China" last week, therefore can claim I know about. Books wouldn't lie, right.
 

Lol...you knock on Plastic vs you knock on Silk...which one give off more sounds ?

 
I'm a biocellulose fan too (CD3000 lover, can't let go) but sometimes we have to consider alternatives.
There are interesting tech articles on the Z1R and it seems the drivers took some development effort.
 
I'll repaste part of our fellow @thatonenoobs article [emphasis mine]
 

---

So why aluminum-coated LCP? According to Nageno-San, there are two primary concerns to be had when picking a material for the driver. Acoustic velocity and internal loss. The ideal material should seek to strike a balance between these two elements. Acoustic velocity is the rate at which a disturbance travels through a medium, and internal loss factors contribute to the resonant ringing in drivers. For example, low internal loss means that drivers will continue to ring even after an input signal has stopped.  Effectively, the resonant characteristics of the driver start to come through and this is unfavorable in most scenarios.   I took a look at an analysis of several driver materials (including Beryllium) with Nageno-San, and unsurprisingly the top choices came out to be aluminum-coated LCP and biocellulose. And about the biocellulose? Originally, the Ajinomoto Company had developed (and rather unsuccessfully applied) biocellulose technology to packaging applications. Through Japan’s Agency for Industrial Science and Technology, Sony was introduced to Ajinomoto’s efforts in biocellulose development, and with the help of some other companies Sony was able to harness biocellulose technology for use in acoustic diaphragms. Somewhere along the line, production seemed to have stopped with Ajinomoto. Digging through Japanese patent records, I found that Ajinomoto had the patents on the cellulose-producing bacteria, while Sony and the AIST had jointly patented the acoustic applications of biocellulose.  Interesting!​

The New Kid In Town?​

Naturally, I went in for the big question. Is this headphone better than the R10? The answer is, technologically – yes.  There you have it!  The answer isn't quite so straightforward...or is it (edit)?  Anyways, I was quickly reminded that each Sony flagship was a reflection of their designer’s personal tastes, and in this case the Z1R was Shunsuke Shiomi’s masterpiece. In many ways, it is deserving of this title.  There are a great number of technologies in the new Z1R that you won’t find mentioned on the product page. It’ll also help to explain the cost of the Z1R. To start, let’s examine the driver unit.  The new magnesium dome piece comes in at a mere 30 micrometers, and cannot be manufactured via a conventional press. I’ve been told that I cannot share how Sony managed to achieve this, but I can tell you it’s pretty ingenious and all in all rather impressive!  The benefits are noticeable –the magnesium dome driver allows the Z1R to achieve better high frequency performance, and the LCP complement allows for more flexibility at the leading edges.
====
Full post for the distracted is here.​

 
 

 
Wow, in the UK it's available on Amazon and the equivalent of under US $2100. 
 
It's not even available here in the USA at all yet. 

 
I know. I got one of the first there. Gotta love the lower MSRP to start with, plus Brexit. And I had to pay VAT being in the EU, for US people, it's probably a good deal.
 
Meanwhile, I'm listening to The Smiths (album: The Sound of The Smiths) and I have to say that the extra touch on the low end works really well. Bass guitars and drums that sound wimpy on the CD3000 and HD 800 S gain a lot of life on the Z1R. Given the grainy mastering of this album, the little touch of extra high end darkness also works really well in this one.
 
Girlfriend in a coma also great.... well not the real girlfriend, the sound you know, the track.... Z1R stuff.

 

[purk]

 

The New Kid In Town?​

Naturally, I went in for the big question. Is this headphone better than the R10? The answer is, technologically – yes.  There you have it!  The answer isn't quite so straightforward...or is it (edit)?  Anyways, I was quickly reminded that each Sony flagship was a reflection of their designer’s personal tastes, and in this case the Z1R was Shunsuke Shiomi’s masterpiece. In many ways, it is deserving of this title.  There are a great number of technologies in the new Z1R that you won’t find mentioned on the product page. It’ll also help to explain the cost of the Z1R. To start, let’s examine the driver unit.  The new magnesium dome piece comes in at a mere 30 micrometers, and cannot be manufactured via a conventional press. I’ve been told that I cannot share how Sony managed to achieve this, but I can tell you it’s pretty ingenious and all in all rather impressive!  The benefits are noticeable –the magnesium dome driver allows the Z1R to achieve better high frequency performance, and the LCP complement allows for more flexibility at the leading edges.​

 
I was not going to touch on this subject but the R10 is a good bit of improvements over the CD3000.   The sound characteristics of the R10 is couple of bass octaves shy of sonic perfection for me and I do own plenty of very good headphones and amplifiers.  If the Z1R struggles to better a stock CD3000, then it will have a tougher time measure up to the R10 side by side.  Similar to the HD800, the R10 does improve leap and bound when driven from a really good balanced amplifier.  I'm not even sure if Sony ever driving their R10 & Qualia in balanced form.  I hope to add the Z1R to my collection soon.

 

[beowulf]

   
I was not going to touch on this subject but the R10 is a good bit of improvements over the CD3000.   The sound characteristics of the R10 is couple of bass octaves shy of sonic perfection for me and I do own plenty of very good headphones and amplifiers.  If the Z1R struggles to better a stock CD3000, then it will have a tougher time measure up to the R10 side by side.  Similar to the HD800, but the R10 does improve leap and bound when driven from a really good balanced amplifier.  I'm not even sure if Sony ever driving their R10 & Qualia in balanced form.  I hope to add the Z1R to my collection soon.

 
I wouldn't say that the Z1R struggles to better the CD3000 in general. In a few areas like bass/sub-bass, it totally wipes the floor with it most of the time, except when the Z1R exaggerates, which happens. One of its strengths is also one of its weaknesses depending on the source material. And that's symmetrical since the CD3Ks weakness is perhaps the bass needing to be tighter and punchier sometimes.
 
What the CD3K delivers nicely is a sense of speed and a grain on the higher midrange and beyond that I find enjoyable most time and tend to relate to detail (even if it isn't). Years ago it's what people used to call "a sibilant sound" while [foolishly] ignoring the CD3000. Midrange and presence is indeed similar in both, to my ears.  Soundstage/separation/positioning is very similar in both but a bit better on the Z1R. They're both very nice and IMHO, none of the two requires a major investment in terms of amping to sound good.
 
I hope you get that Z1R soon purk, it will be very interesting to hear your thoughts on a good comparison. You have to keep an open mind to the change and new traits tho...