[up late]

Thanks Amos..that sums up my point exactly. I'm glad you got it at least. The headphones he mentioned, those measurements did jive with my experiences. The Z1R was so far off that it really took me aback from what I was hearing and had me re-look at this subject altogether. FWIW, the Abyss, K812 measurements (and a few others) missed the mark on what I was hearing as well, but nothing was as far off as what I heard as the Z1R measurements which is only fairly recent.

I'm surprised that you still don't seem to grasp this tbh. you are judging the accuracy of tyll's measurements based on what you hear, which is erroneous. it's a bit like questioning a car's speedometer because it seems as though it's travelling faster or slower. you won't be able to ascertain whether the speedometer is accurate or not by relying solely on your sensory perception. the speedometer must be checked against an objective standard in order to determine that.

the fact that some of tyll's measurements "jive" with what you hear and some don't doesn't necessarily mean that they are somehow off. all it means is that your hearing perception doesn't always align with them. remember it's the headphones that are being measured, not your hearing acuity. the way to determine the accuracy or otherwise of tyll's measurements is by subjecting his testing methodology and headphone rig to objective testing, which includes checking that his measurement rig is properly calibrated. your ears aren't the right tool for that job.

That's kind of his thing Dave.

sniping at me isn't going to make your approach any less flawed

Your ears are the final arbitrator of what you like, all that matters. If you like how something sounds, measurements are irrelevant. You cannot use measurements to say that that can't be so.

try reading my posts and hopefully you'll understand that isn't the issue here

 

[fullranger]

Two word posts are worthless, unless you say thanks you.
You do realize that YOU are the one being referred to as way off-topic.
I had to log in to give you the word that you have pretty much sunk this thread. It's been very unenjoyable watching you snipping, baiting, accusing, and deflecting.
Get the Z1R listed in your inventory. Otherwise you belong on the sound science forum. It's been suggested to you a few times recently.

 

[Currawong]

leaving the issue of the selective use of tyll's measurements to aside, it is erroneous to rely on your hearing to question the accuracy of those measurements

You're trying to gaslight this as fact, which it is not. If some of my experiences correspond with someone else's measurements, and some do not, then the question is "why", and not an open invitation to attack another member.

As I have, for example, three different bass-heavy tracks in a playlist which give different impressions of the bass response on headphones, I can very well think of music selection as a strong candidate for explaining the varied impressions people have of various headphones, including my own. But if attacking people who don't agree with you is what you enjoy, I suggest you take up boxing instead, as it allows you to punch people in the head.

 

[up late]

You're trying to gaslight this as fact, which it is not. If some of my experiences correspond with someone else's measurements, and some do not, then the question is "why", and not an open invitation to attack another member.

As I have, for example, three different bass-heavy tracks in a playlist which give different impressions of the bass response on headphones, I can very well think of music selection as a strong candidate for explaining the varied impressions people have of various headphones, including my own. But if attacking people who don't agree with you is what you enjoy, I suggest you take up boxing instead, as it allows you to punch people in the head.

I'm not attacking anyone but I will challenge their opinions and beliefs when I think it's warranted. and contrary to what you think of me, I don't derive any enjoyment from doing it but this is a forum after all. an example of a personal attack is the post immediately preceding yours, which is totally uncalled for and has been reported.

I find it astonishing that anyone would take my posts personally given the blatant personal attacks that have been launched in this thread at a reviewer for doing his job and also at me, along with the obvious baiting.

I appreciate that you value contextualising listening impressions by referring to the music that is being listened to, but I don't think that's related to what i've been saying tbh.

 

[fullranger]

The attacks you perceive seem to be unrelated to the topic of this thread.
Somebody, including the reviewer you wish to defend, said he can handle himself just fine. Doesn't need the help.
Try to relax.

 

[up late]

that's right. personal attacks are both unrelated to the thread topic and uncalled for. they'll be deleted by the mods in due course, which includes your previous post. and thanks for the life coaching tip but i'm doing just fine.

 

[fullranger]

By the way... Why do you think I was talking about you in my previous post? Let the mods come in here and clear a few pages of debris, if they wish.
700+ pages, and now every post somehow relates to you over the last 200 of them. Hmmm...

 

[up late]

your use of the word "you" and that your posts immediately followed mine kinda gave it away.

now here's some advice for you, your inflammatory posts aren't helping.

 

[MacedonianHero]

I'm surprised that you still don't seem to grasp this tbh. you are judging the accuracy of tyll's measurements based on what you hear, which is erroneous. it's a bit like questioning a car's speedometer because it seems as though it's travelling faster or slower. we won't be able to ascertain whether the speedometer is accurate or not by relying solely on our perception. we need to check it against an objective standard in order to determine that.

the fact that some of tyll's measurements "jive" with what you hear and some don't doesn't mean that they are somehow off. all it means is that your hearing perception doesn't always align with them. remember it's the headphones that are being measured, not your hearing acuity. the way to determine the accuracy or otherwise of tyll's measurements is by subjecting his testing methodology and headphone rig to objective testing, which includes checking that his measurement rig is properly calibrated. your ears aren't the right tool for that job.



sniping at me isn't going to make your approach any less flawed



try reading my posts. hopefully you'll understand that isn't the issue here.

So going with your poor analogy of speed in a car (which is much simpler and much less things to consider). Imagine you have a speedometer and you've been driving for years. So you have a good sense of what speed you're going. You check your speedometer and for the most part it's pretty close to your experiences. Then one day you take it out in a hails storm for the first time and you feel you're going one speed and your speedometer says something completely different. Now you're thinking what's going on? You then start to time going 1 mile at a time and perform a rudimentary calculation to determine your average speed and it jives with your perception (this was me performing FR sweeps with my SPL meter at home). Then your friend Jude lends you his speedometer (using his measurements) and you take it out on the exact same conditions and it much more closely matches your perception. So then you have to go back and reconsider things. That is all I said and I didn't think this was too hard to understand? Your personal attacks that others here are calling you out for are perfectly warranted IMO. Remember, if it seems it is you against the world, maybe it is time to stop and think....maybe it is you.

 

[fullranger]

Doesn't everybody's post come up just after yours? I mean all six people left?

 

[MacedonianHero]

NVM

 

[up late]

So going with your poor analogy of speed in a car (which is much simpler and much less things to consider). Imagine you have a speedometer and you've been driving for years. So you have a good sense of what speed you're going. You check your speedometer and for the most part it's pretty close to your experiences. Then one day you take it out in a hails storm for the first time and you feel you're going one speed and your speedometer says something completely different. Now you're thinking what's going on? You then start to time going 1 mile at a time and perform a rudimentary calculation to determine your average speed and it jives with your perception (this was me performing FR sweeps with my SPL meter at home). Then your friend Jude lends you his speedometer (using his measurements) and you take it out on the exact same conditions and it much more closely matches your perception. So then you have to go back and reconsider things. That is all I said and I didn't think this was too hard to understand? Your personal attacks that others here are calling you out for are perfectly warranted IMO. Remember, if it seems it is you against the world, maybe it is time to stop and think....maybe it is you.

you can complicate my "poor" analogy all you like, but it was used to illustrate a simple point - that using your hearing perception to judge the accuracy of tyll's, jude's or anyone else's headphone measurements is erroneous. it is a flawed approach to use your sensory perception to judge the accuracy of any objective measurements for that matter.

I really shouldn't need to remind you that this disagreement began because you originally questioned tyll's z1r, hd800 and hd800s measurements based on what you heard, and you've been quite insistent about it.

it seems to me that the assumption underpinning your use of headphone measurements is that your hearing perception is somehow infallible, and if the measurements don't "jive" with what you hear, then they are what should be subject to question rather than your hearing.

I regard headphone measurements as indicative and compare them to my listening impressions. sometimes what I hear closely aligns to the measurements and sometimes it doesn't, but i never assume that the reason for the discrepancy is due to a problem with the measurements. that just strikes me as a fundamentally flawed conclusion to come to for the reasons that I've already given.

my "attacks" are never personal, but some folks sure do take them personally. the responses in this thread to tyll's review, and the discussion of headphone frequency response curves and measurements are damning evidence of that. and I don't accept that my posts equate to me being "against the world". this thread is a very small part of the world, and it's populated by z1r owners. many of the responses to my posts have come as no surprise to me. in fact, i kinda expected it, which isn't something I look forward to.

Doesn't everybody's post come up just after yours? I mean all six people left?

come on. stop trying to defend the indefensible.

 

[Currawong]

Face it: What you wrote and are writing about what MH said is wrong. You can easily see that in your reply to his post, where he said he was "in a dilemma". Now you're just refusing to back down and attacking anyone who points this out, as well as attempting to manipulative. If you don't enjoy this, as you say, then stop it, because the only "flaws" in belief here are yours in what you believe people mean when they write something. You need to take your own advice and read what people write, instead of interpreting what you think the mean, then refusing to apologise and digging in hard when it is clear you are wrong.

 

[up late]

Face it: What you wrote and are writing about what MH said is wrong. You can easily see that in your reply to his post, where he said he was "in a dilemma". Now you're just refusing to back down and attacking anyone who points this out, as well as attempting to manipulative. If you don't enjoy this, as you say, then stop it, because the only "flaws" in belief here are yours in what you believe people mean when they write something. You need to take your own advice and read what people write, instead of interpreting what you think the mean, then refusing to apologise and digging in hard when it is clear you are wrong.

the disagreement between macedonian hero and I didn't begin with that post. there was an exchange of posts that preceded it. I suggest that you dig a little deeper in the thread before casting judgement on me.

and again, I didn't attack him personally, but I have challenged his use of headphone measurements in support of his listening impressions and opinions, as well as his assumptions underpinning them, and I make no apology for that.

I'm definitely not trying to manipulate anything. the facts are that i have been on the receiving end of some personal attacks and baiting for expressing dissenting opinions regarding tyll's review, and the role that frequency response curves and headphone measurements have in this hobby. I've not sought any apologies from those people and none have been forthcoming.

I accept that this happens a lot in the forum threads because emotions can run high when we have these kinds of discussions and disagreements. and this thread isn't unique in that regard, but it has been sustained here for what seems like an extraordinary length of time.

I'm happy to take this to pms if you want to continue with the discussion.

 

[Rowethren]

This thread is so toxic... Not much fun to read when this is supposed to be a place to relax so cya and have fun endlessly arguing!