[Kukuk]

I dunno, I guess it's just a self-insert vs actual character thing. As strange as it might sound, I have a hard time connecting to a game as a self-insert character, I need a personality to attach to.

 

[MuppetFace]

 
Quote:

I dunno, I guess it's just a self-insert vs actual character thing. As strange as it might sound, I have a hard time connecting to a game as a self-insert character, I need a personality to attach to.

I know what you mean.
 
Though I'd argue that in a game like DA:O, my character had plenty of personality, and it wasn't just me inserting myself. On the contrary, I had a hard time making certain decisions because she wasn't a very nice person and did things I would never advocate doing, but I made those decisions based on playing what I made her personality to be. For me, having to read the dialog options and not hearing her voice out loud didn't ruin that illusion.
 
If anything, it was STRONGER, because in DAII often times what the dialog choices read and what your character said didn't match up all the time. Plenty of moments where I thought it was something else, but actually turned out to be voiced as something different. Had that happen in ME as well, but much more often in DAII for some reason.
 
With a game like DA:O, it's tricky because I'm not sure if the developers would have added a voice to the main character if they could or not. Sometimes a character is rendered silent for self insertion reasons as you say, but in the case of DA:O I really do think it was a logistics problem. It would have been too hard to have, what, twelve different readings of every script option for the main character alone?

 

[Mad Lust Envy]

Seriously, silent protagonists have no place in video games, especially when the other characters interact with them as if they were pets...

"Crono, you wanna go rescue Marle? OK!"

Shoot me now. It makes main characters so one dimensional, self insert or not.

Kinda hard to like mains when they don't do anything but fight.



Guys, this is hilarious and 100% true..

WARNING: DON'T WATCH IF YOU HAVEN'T BEATEN THE GAME YET!




[VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b33tJx8iy0A&feature=player_embedded[/VIDEO]

 

[ChronorSonar]

Seen that one and many more.   If not discussed already, what were your favorite moments?  And I won't discuss the ending until MuppetFace finishes.

Spoiler: Warning%3A%20Spoiler!

 
 
Mine was Mordin's "redemption".  (My take on the whole genophage ending).  Playing Paragon, Mordin's sacrifice was very powerful and many man tears were shed because of it.
 

 

 

[ibage]

Quote:

Guys, this is hilarious and 100% true..
WARNING: DON'T WATCH IF YOU HAVEN'T BEATEN THE GAME YET!

 
There's talk on BSN about a possible leak for the next set of games here. Don't read if you haven't played through ME3 yet. However, they are "fixing" the current ending which is happening sometime in April. Pax East is in two weeks however. I can imagine too many fans there at teh ME panel without torches and pitchforks. It's confirmed they're reworking parts of the ending but to what extent is unclear. 
 
But yeah, this video had it pegged nicely
 

 

[ChronorSonar]

I just hope pitchforks and torches will not be involved @ PAX.  Been participating with the forums on BSN.  Needless to say, there are issues.

 

[ibage]

Quote:

I just hope pitchforks and torches will not be involved @ PAX.  Been participating with the forums on BSN.  Needless to say, there are issues.

I'm hoping there won't be a need for them but the more Casey talks about things, the more backhanded he sounds towards the fans. 

 

[MuppetFace]

Perhaps developers get tired of fans who feel they're entitled. Seriously, the amount of b-tching that has gone on about Mass Effect 3 is astounding, and it started long, long before the game was released. Everything from speculation about game mechanics to character design to DLC on the first day. Whine, whine, whine. I even recall one guy on the BioWare boards who was upset by all the homosexual relationships in the games and felt that BioWare wasn't "catering to their biggest demographic: straight white males." Mass Effect is a game and a product to be sold, sure, but it's also a work of art made by artists who don't have to cater to every whim "the fans" have.
 
Just an alternate perspective on things.

 

[Roller]

Quote:

Mass Effect is a game and a product to be sold, sure, but it's also a work of art made by artists who don't have to cater to every whim "the fans" have.

Just like the content currently available on television has degraded in quality on several levels, so does gaming have lower standards masked by high quality graphics. One of the reasons why gameplay and storytelling should have more effort from the developers, rather than just increasing graphics fidelity up to a point that it depletes initially proposed budgets. The triple A developers might want to start taking some cues from the indie gaming scene.

 

[ibage]

Quote:

Perhaps developers get tired of fans who feel they're entitled. Seriously, the amount of b-tching that has gone on about Mass Effect 3 is astounding, and it started long, long before the game was released. Everything from speculation about game mechanics to character design to DLC on the first day. Whine, whine, whine. I even recall one guy on the BioWare boards who was upset by all the homosexual relationships in the games and felt that BioWare wasn't "catering to their biggest demographic: straight white males." Mass Effect is a game and a product to be sold, sure, but it's also a work of art made by artists who don't have to cater to every whim "the fans" have.
 
Just an alternate perspective on things.

I agree here for the most part. Normally, I'm one to dismiss most claims. But here, there's a very valid reason and when such a large number of fans get salty over inconsistencies, something here is on the developers. I remember seeing countless threads on Deception not too long ago and how that book broke a lot of stuff. I'm not expecting an apology nor do I think we deserve one. Choosing what battles to fight is on the developers and writers and with such a resounding number of fans going off about the ending, I don't think they're in the right here. The gay romance arc complaining is just stupid and if the devs listened and removed those and not devote time to fixing the endings, I'd be pissed. The devs need to accept here however, something they did was wrong in this situation.
 
Also, don't misinterpret this post. I realize you're playing devil's advocate here. I'm not trying to tear into you. 
 

 

[Mad Lust Envy]

so does gaming have lower standards masked by high quality graphics.

Dear god, THIS.

If you've been a gamer long enough, you can see how simpler game mechanics have become, while graphics have increased.

One main example is Final Fantasy XIII (and XIII-2 while non-linear is stil a far cry from the games before it).

They raised the quality of graphics, but completely removed the huge worlds to explore in Final Fantasy games. the many sidequests, towns, and just sheer content as a whole has been tossded aside in favor of graphics.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE good graphics. However, it should NOT take precedence over content and mechanics. There should be a set point where developers need to make some sacrifices in terms of GRAPHICS, to include MORE game.

Do any of you remember Final Fantasy VII and VIII? Of course you have. Those games in current gen would NOT exist, because of how much content they have, and how much the developer doesn't want to sacrifice graphics in order to keep all that content.

It's a damn shame.

As for Square-Enix themselves, the first instance of them cutting corners that I noticed was Kingdom Hearts II. If you play the first and then the II immediately after, you can see just how much the actual worlds were toned down. the platforming was almost completely removed, and map designs were simplified to the point of them being glorified rooms. I'm betting the resources were moved from level design, to the battle system. I love that game, but it suffered in certain areas, quite obviously so.

S-E has been cutting corners ever since.


How is this related to ME3? Bioware made the game even more restricted than the second game. They simplified the hell out of it. Gone is the multiple world explorations. Sure, they can say it was due to the story, but I call bull. Most of the optional 'War Assets', would have been taken from actual world exploration.

It's sad to see where games are going. Graphics first, everything else last.

 

[EnOYiN]

Just like the content currently available on television has degraded in quality on several levels, so does gaming have lower standards masked by high quality graphics. One of the reasons why gameplay and storytelling should have more effort from the developers, rather than just increasing graphics fidelity up to a point that it depletes initially proposed budgets. The triple A developers might want to start taking some cues from the indie gaming scene.

Sure it would be nice, but what for? The triple A publishers get to sell their garbage for a lot more then indies get to sell their games. Most triple A titles make a profit. That's what the triple A has to do with I believe.

Think about the two most selling games of the last year (according to steam). We've got CoD and Skyrim. I don't think I even have to convince anyone when I say CoD is awful. The series started just fine, but after the first MW it all went downhill. The last one is a map pack. You can even buy DLC map packs for your map pack. When comparing it to some of the best shooters ever made it's a disgrace. People could be playing a proper game like Quake, Unreal, CS, tribes, warsow or what have you. But they don't. People apparently really like to fool themselves by the 'accomplishment model'. Instead of enjoying a game for it's gameplay people get to unlock new guns. And when they've unlocked new guns they feel like they've accomplished something. That has something to do with dopamine I believe.

And now for the most selling game this year: Skyrim. I really liked this game at first and I've invested a lot of hours in it. It had a lot of technical issues at launch. Dragons didn't attack so they patched it after which they flew backwards instead. The GUI was plain bad for a PC. There were quests that didn't work. The main problem aside from the technical issues it had is that most of the content in this game is shallow. It consists mainly of fetch quests without any of them actually having any meaningful impact on the world around you. The only really fun thing in the game is just wandering around.

So that's what people buy. One plain horrible game and one mediocre one. And all the while people could be playing games which are actually fun and don't cost any money. I think the problem with this isn't that people who enjoy these games buy them, it's the feedback they give the publishers. Don't think Activision will stop ruining games if we keep giving them more money for inferior products.

And then ME3 comes along... They start off with Origin. Everyone loved that one I'm sure. Someone spots some files when the game is in beta and another spots a DLC on a market place. People start their inquiries and turns out there is a day one DLC. No problem in and of itself. The problem is that it will cost 10 extra moneys. That and the fact that the guys said that it had been developed after the game had been send in for review. They just may have lied about that little detail. Whether they did or they didn't is something we won't find out any time soon. What we found out straight away was that unless you bought the CE, you were going to fork over more money. Because you're not going to buy a game on launch if you didn't like ME and since you apparently do like ME you would want the complete game. People don't like to be manipulated which is why I didn't end up buying ME3. If they had just straight up asked 70 euro for the complete package I would've bought it no problem. Now on to the ending which a lot of people didn't find to be all that great. I think the main thing to keep in mind is that the above happend and a lot of people weren't all that happy to begin with. The ending may have been something people could live with if they didn't try their hardest to piss people off. However, now it turned out to be the last drop. I would say people are overreacting, but it isn't the first time an ending was rewritten. (fallout 3)

If everyone keeps buying games like this you can depend on it that someone will keep selling them.

 

[MuppetFace]

Quote:

Just like the content currently available on television has degraded in quality on several levels, so does gaming have lower standards masked by high quality graphics. One of the reasons why gameplay and storytelling should have more effort from the developers, rather than just increasing graphics fidelity up to a point that it depletes initially proposed budgets. The triple A developers might want to start taking some cues from the indie gaming scene.

Funny you should say that, because BioWare was an indie gaming company who got gobbled up by corporate colossi. And up until fairly recently, they're maintained a level of quality that has eclipsed most other developers I can think of at present. The acquisition by EA was a very unfortunate occurrence from a creative standpoint, and one can see the effects it has had on their quality control over the last year or two, though it remains to be seen whether the lifeblood is going to be completely drained from them. Knowing EA it probably will. But BioWare has actually done quite well so far considering the acquisition. If EA had any sense they'd leave BioWare alone to do what they want, but---to borrow a phrase from Mad Lust Envy---anyone who has been a gamer long enough should know that EA is a perfect example of "greedy corporate entity." They're honestly a blight on the gaming industry. The fact that BioWare was able to make something as well done as Mass Effect 3 in spite of having to kowtow and make consessions to EA's ridiculous demands is frankly surprising.

 

[MuppetFace]

And how is the DLC being included in the collector's edition a slap in the face to those who didn't buy the collector's edition? It's not like you're having to pay for the DLC when those who bought the CE didn't. The CE cost more money. Either way, you pay for it.
 
Fun fact: there was day one DLC with Mass Effect 2 as well. Was there public outrage then? Not nearly to this extent. Honestly, people have been in a right ol' stink ever since DAII. They feel betrayed or something, because they labor under the delusion that developers are there to cater to their every fancy. When a game turns out to not conform to that, suddenly the developers are "lazy" and "letting their standards slip" and "sell outs." People feel entitled, and people love to whine about stuff (like I'm doing now ironically), and so we get these elaborate conspiracy theories about how BioWare is getting lap dances from their EA Overlords in exchange for screwing over the fans.
 
The changes to Mass Effect and Dragon Age weren't always for the better, but they weren't the result of "laziness" like some want to argue. That's just ridiculous quite frankly. BioWare never rests on their laurels, and they're constantly experimenting with new narrative techniques and approaches. If a game ends up broken like DAII, it's because it's rushed out the door by EA or because too many compromises just buckled the project under its own weight. But it's not laziness. It's being TOO ambitious if anything. Really, if BioWare wanted to be lazy, wouldn't they simply re-hash DA:O and ME1 over and over, basically just releasing the same game in terms of mechanics with slight tweaks, rather than building an entirely new system and presentation? That's why I can't buy the "BioWare is lazy" argument.

 

[MuppetFace]

Quote:

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE good graphics. However, it should NOT take precedence over content and mechanics. There should be a set point where developers need to make some sacrifices in terms of GRAPHICS, to include MORE game.
Do any of you remember Final Fantasy VII and VIII? Of course you have. Those games in current gen would NOT exist, because of how much content they have, and how much the developer doesn't want to sacrifice graphics in order to keep all that content.
It's a damn shame.
It's sad to see where games are going. Graphics first, everything else last.

1.) The same exact thing was said about Final Fantasy VII and VIII when they were released; some people pointed to all those cutscenes and decried "it's all about graphics now! Final Fantasy VI has so much more actual content." Happens every generation.
 
2.) I'd also strongly disagree about games today not having "as much content" as Final Fantasy VII and VIII. I love FFVII myself, but honestly it was extremely linear up until the acquisition of the flying ship. Games like Elder Scrolls and Dragon Age: Origins allow the player much more freedom to approach the game in a variety of different ways. You can spend hours upon hours just reading in-game books that were written solely for the game. The amount of "world building" that goes into such games is immense. I can understand preferring RPGs like Final Fantasy VII, but to say they have more content than something like Elder Scrolls strikes me as completely unfounded.