[Zanth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 00940 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I wouldn't want to enter that discussion for anything in the world but ... The quote from Lord Kelvin is :"There is nothing new to be discovered in physics now. All that remains is more and more precise measurement."

You rule Ben, thanks!

 

[Zanth]

Sovkiller, the current implementation of DBTs is not working. I proposed an alternative, yet I was dismissed as to the need or validity of such a DBT. Apparently the only valuable DBT is one where a person is in a room for a determined length of time among peers or pros and made to exhausitively listen back and forth and then comment on the differences.

This DBT is known to be flawed...so again, changes must be made to improve this process if DBT is the way to go.

 

[Night Surfer]

The Blue Pill Placebo Denial camp doesn't want to wake up and they have bought the Red Pill people a short-bus to ride to the projects and leave them alone.

Priceless.

 

[PiccoloNamek]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanth /img/forum/go_quote.gif Wrong. This is not only accomplished via double-blind testing. This unfortunately is the major fallacy pushed on everyone by blinded objectivists, or rather reductionists. Seriously, do you know what emergence is? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm asking legitimately. Everything hinges on the understanding between reductionism and emergence. You are clearly in the reductionist camp.

Of course I know what emergence is. Are you saying there is some kind of emergent property arising from the auditory system that allows for these superhuman feats of audition?

Quote:

No, no no!... etc

Perhaps I incorrectly worded my paragraph. Of course we should refine our testing procedures and try to control as many variables as we possibly can. What I was really getting at is the assertions by subjectivists that no DBT is ever good enough for them. There is always something wrong with it. The room was too hot, I was too hungry, the chair was hurting my ass, the testers made me feel nervous, ad nauseum. How far do we have to go to please them before they are satisfied? Or perhaps the real question is, is it even possible to do so? You say that the current type of DBT is not working, this is utter nonsense. It seems to always work properly and do its job well except when dealing with audio enthusiasts. You never see these kinds of arguments among other enthusiast circles. Take wine enthusiasts, for example. There, DBT is not only accepted, but encouraged and even demanded. You never see people making long-winded arguments about emergence versus reductionism, or muddying the waters with diatribes about how science was in the dark ages. Not only that, but experienced oenophiles can reliably and repeatably pass double-blind tests.

But with audiophiles, it is nothing but complaints, excuses, and even outright refusal. I'm sure there are very interesting psychological reasons for this.

 

[Night Surfer]

Question:

In the lovely New World Order will I even be allowed to question someone who claims to be able to resolve 320kbs MP3 vs Lossless and ask them if they have tested themselves and therefore ruled out placebo? (Keeping whatever judgments or opinions I have about their response to myself, of course (wouldn't want to UPSET anyone now, would we?))

Absolutely fascinating how the need to protect "feelings" outweighs the desire to prevent the spread of questionable or outright false information.

 

[elrod-tom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arainach /img/forum/go_quote.gif That language seems decidedly negative against the objectivist forum. I disagree with its status as a subforum rather than an equal forum but doubt I'll win that debate; nevertheless, the negative language seems absurd and excessive.

If you would like to be a part of the solution, feel free to suggest language that is less offending of yor'n and y'ins delicate sensibilities. I can't see anything wrong with it, but it was not intended to offend.

As for the DBT discussions being part of a sub-forum, I'm thinking that's where they will stay. Like it or not, agree with it or not, it seems to me that the vast majority of folks would either like to avoid typically rancourous DBT discussions altogether, or would prefer that their subjectivist discussions (which appear to represent the beliefs of a majority of the membership) be allowed to continue without the unwanted interruption that comes when an argumentative objectivist inserts himself into the discussion.

I mean, twas a time when DBT discussions were deleted. Isn't this a step in the direction of progress and "fairness" with regard to the whole DBT issue?

 

[oicdn]

So...all this talk about it opening soon...its been "opening soon" for months....is it really going to open? Why isn't it already open? Or, is it something to keep people quiet by saying "it's opening soon"?

 

[monolith]

Quote:

Originally Posted by elrod-tom /img/forum/go_quote.gif I mean, twas a time when DBT discussions were deleted. Isn't this a step in the direction of progress and "fairness" with regard to the whole DBT issue?

It's a step, but still leaves things pretty far towards the unfair side.

As I've said, the most fair solution is basically to invert the current plan. Make the "main" forum anything goes (with active moderation to prevent "rancorous" discussion and malicious thread derailment), and make a subforum of the main one a place where no science or DBT can be discussed.

I find it abundantly clear that the most objectionable posts in threads like these come from "true believers". Rather than skeptics trumpeting "Prove it, prove it! DBT! DBT!" regardless of the reasoned opinions of believers, much more commonly I see believers trumpeting "You haven't heard it! You haven't heard it!" regardless of the reasoned opinions of skeptics.

It's shocking to me that this schism isn't being carried the way I describe above. The way it's being planned currently totally avoids solving the problem at hand. To paraphrase something Frank Zappa said in the face of oncoming censorship, this is like treating dandruff with decapitation.

 

[Wmcmanus]

Yawn... just caught up on this thread. Figured it would go in this direction.

 

[elrod-tom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Night Surfer /img/forum/go_quote.gif The Blue Pill Placebo Denial camp doesn't want to wake up and they have bought the Red Pill people a short-bus to ride to the projects and leave them alone. Priceless.

Posts like this make me think that maybe we're making a mistake by permitting some discussion of DBT. Could you be more arrogant, obnoxious, and dismissive if you HAD your own forum?

I must confess that, at the moment, it wouldn't bother me one bit to tell this poster and his like-minded obnoxious buddies to go pound sand. Frankly, I have to wonder if we're going to create a BIGGER problem by sactioning attitudes like this.

But, we wish to be open minded about this. Apparently that doesn't mean much to some.

 

[Zanth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by oicdn /img/forum/go_quote.gif So...all this talk about it opening soon...its been "opening soon" for months....is it really going to open? Why isn't it already open? Or, is it something to keep people quiet by saying "it's opening soon"?

Or maybe, like mbriant indicated before, things slowly progress as time prevails. Unlike many around these parts, the mods and admins have lives outside of Head-fi. We already have some folks helping migrate threads to the high-end forum, in time the Objectivist forum will open. But please, let your conspiratorial speculation continue! It adds so much to the discussion!

 

[Night Surfer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by elrod-tom /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you would like to be a part of the solution, feel free to suggest language that is less offending of yor'n and y'ins delicate sensibilities. I can't see anything wrong with it, but it was not intended to offend.

LOL @ "delicate sensibilities". Beyond bloody ironic, that is.

 

[elrod-tom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by oicdn /img/forum/go_quote.gif So...all this talk about it opening soon...its been "opening soon" for months....is it really going to open? Why isn't it already open? Or, is it something to keep people quiet by saying "it's opening soon"?

It's not open (as was pointed out earlier in the thread) because of other priorities...that's all. I mean, if the goal was to keep people quiet, I'd note that it didn't seem to work with you.

 

[oicdn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanth /img/forum/go_quote.gif Or maybe, like mbriant indicated before, things slowly progress as time prevails. Unlike many around these parts, the mods and admins have lives outside of Head-fi. We already have some folks helping migrate threads to the high-end forum, in time the Objectivist forum will open. But please, let your conspiratorial speculation continue! It adds so much to the discussion!

Nothing conspiratorial about it...rather, it's a quite simple observation.

Most of the DBT threads are locked down already....so what's there to move to the new forum? Locked threads?

Quote:

Originally Posted by elrod-tom /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's not open (as was pointed out earlier in the thread) because of other priorities...that's all. I mean, if the goal was to keep people quiet, I'd note that it didn't seem to work with you.

I didn't read all 9 pages, so if it was pointed out already...my apologies. I was just stating an observation.

 

[Zanth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PiccoloNamek /img/forum/go_quote.gif Of course I know what emergence is. Are you saying there is some kind of emergent property arising from the auditory system that allows for these superhuman feats of audition?

Yes of course

Ask any musician who knows how to listen to music, now provide the same respect to audio nuts and you are on the right track. Remember, emergence = biology and psychology. Are you saying that these fields have nothing to do with how a person hears?

Quote:

Perhaps I incorrectly worded my paragraph. Of course we should refine our testing procedures and try to control as many variables as we possibly can. What I was really getting at is the assertions by subjectivists that no DBT is ever good enough for them.

Some subjectivists.

Quote:

There is always something wrong with it. The room was too hot, I was too hungry, the chair was hurting my ass, the testers made me feel nervous, ad nauseum. How far do we have to go to please them before they are satisfied? Or perhaps the real question is, is it even possible to do so? You say that the current type of DBT is not working, this is utter nonsense. It seems to always work properly and do its job well except when dealing with audio enthusiasts.

Or musicians.

Quote:

You never see these kinds of arguments among other enthusiast circles. Take wine enthusiasts, for example. There, DBT is not only accepted, but encouraged and even demanded. You never see people making long-winded arguments about emergence versus reductionism, or muddying the waters with diatribes about how science was in the dark ages. Not only that, but experienced oenophiles can reliably and repeatably pass double-blind tests.

The nose is much better understood (as is the tongue) and its associated cognitive functions vs. auditory and visual stimuli. I mentioned this before. This is a scientific fact, or will you dismiss science when it doesn't fit with your world view? You can't have it both ways.

Quote:

But with audiophiles, it is nothing but complaints, excuses, and even outright refusal. I'm sure there are very interesting psychological reasons for this.

In some cases, definitely as would be the reasons that diehard objectivists would dismiss anything experiential that can't be measured.

I think you and I have dealt with the topic at hand. I have nothing more to add. I'm not personally against DBT's I just don't think current ones are sufficiently robust enough to factor everything involved. You do. We won't agree. I believe there is much to be learned about the way humans hear sound and perceive music. You don't. We won't agree.

As for the subforum, I hope that it could remain as civil or more so than the conversation we partook in. I would hate it to be filled with the putrid rubbish that Night Surfer and his ilk would subject readers to.