[bangraman]

"I agree with Bangraman that a device should measure well first, then made to sound good."


All right, let me try and get my original point across once again (to the likes of vranswer too), and I'm out of here.


Because I don't believe in measurements only (everything I've noticed, I've noticed with my ears first, after which I go to measurements to confirm) what halcyon said is kind of a roundbout way of saying what I wanted to say, which is that the HD5 upsets the level playing field inhabited by all the other players out there for no good reason. If it had a better audio stage than the competition, it wouldn't be an issue. But it has inferior sound quality to many of the rest.


You might say it's not a big issue. If you were to press me, I'd say in isolation it isn't. But what this boils down to the fact is that if Sony uses manipulative principles to mask a slightly poorer audio stage with a subtle shift in flavour, enough for it to be picked up as slightly better, whose to say others won't adopt the same approach? After all, fooling the inexperienced is a lot easier than engineering new fabric and a great audio stage. You're on a slippery slope and we Head-Fi members may really have to go back to our Discmen for sound quality.


All right, maybe I'm exaggerating but this could be the start of a retrograde step in the DAP world.


Other players which measure flat (either as is or with an optimum load) don't sound the same, even if you compare with headphones which bypasses any bass fall-off problems which certain players might have. There are codec differences, there are also differences in sonic resolution, noise, etc. These are what players should be compared on, not on the basis of optimal euphonics on a 'sorta-kinda-flat' EQ test, especially as all portables have the scope to adjust that flavour.

 

[allenf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vranswer But if it's > {greater than}, how can it be inferior?

Because it's > in casual listening tests.
The clear implication is that a little bit of engineering in listening tests can convince the casual ear that one thing "sounds better" than another - purely because of a little tickle in the eq.
This does not mean that it has better "sound quality" - in the accepted definition of "sound quality" being a sense of naturalness, transparency, detail etc etc.
<Insert Your Flame here:>

 

[vranswer]

OK. I may have some corroboration here. On a lark I just mp3Gained the mp3 version of a CD I have. I HAD the album on my iPod as ALAC files, which of course are at full gain. I have the same CD ripped with EAC/APS for use on my NW-E507 - so I deleted the ALAC version off iPod, mp3Gained the mp3 files and uploaded the album back onto iPod as APS-mp3Gained media. I then switched bass booster preset 'on'. I know the CD very well and have quickly grown to love the Sony flash player because of its bass warmth and all that's been discussed in this thread, and the way the recording sounds with it.

Playing the APS-gained version on iPod with ability to utilize bass boost brought some of B'man's comments into focus a little bit. I now had some pretty rich, warm bass - making my E4Cs come to fruition as they've not been doing on iPod. They no longer sounded blaring at higher volume levels as they often do without the bass-rich signal. But to point, iPod's substantial SQ was also shining as well. While I enjoyed the smooth and powerful bass, I also was able to hear the detail and imaging the iPod offers, just no longer one-dimensional. Very sweet. One song has a bass guitar passage which showed stroke and depth I'd not fully appreciated before.

What I'm sayin' is I think I get it. ...and it's a little jarring when you change your avatar like that.

 

[dura]

The Sony just sound more pleasant but is inferior with engineered sound and the ipod has a much better SQ if one uses MP3gain?? I still miss something.

 

[vranswer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dura The Sony just sound more pleasant but is inferior with engineered sound and the ipod has a much better SQ if one uses MP3gain?? I still miss something.

You miss the bass. ...It's well-known that's what iPod is missing and its EQ presets distort, but that's not the topic here.

 

[abitdeef]

Well well, I just listend to my panasonic sl-s290 cd player flat and the nw-hd5 flat and guess what !! There definatly is some added boost in the low mids and high bass . Don't get me wrong I still love the sound of the player and really think it has as much definition and soundstage as the ipod. However, I think it would be quite obvious - this little boost would make the "flat" sound a little richer and more fuller than the other players- it did with my pcdp!

For a minute there bangraman I just thought maybe you didn't like sony

Still haven't heard any hiss on the player though.

I tried a bunch of file types on the hd5 and it was pretty easy to pick out.
Also tried the same thing with my mini and iaudio u2 and got the same results- except the ipod appeared a little brighter than the others flat.

 

[gords]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ihatepopupads Well well, I just listend to my panasonic sl-s290 cd player flat and the nw-hd5 flat and guess what !! There definatly is some added boost in the low mids and high bass . Don't get me wrong I still love the sound of the player and really think it has as much definition and soundstage as the ipod. However, I think it would be quite obvious - this little boost would make the "flat" sound a little richer and more fuller than the other players- it did with my pcdp! For a minute there bangraman I just thought maybe you didn't like sony Still haven't heard any hiss on the player though. I tried a bunch of file types on the hd5 and it was pretty easy to pick out. Also tried the same thing with my mini and iaudio u2 and got the same results- except the ipod appeared a little brighter than the others flat.

I don't understand why people are acting so shocked. I thought it was common knowledge that sony DAPs have a bassy sound sig just as it's common knowledge that ipod's have a neutral sound sig. I've read it numerous times in past threads.

 

[jant71]

Exactly Gords. And it shouldn't have been news to bangraman. Minidisc has exhibited this for quite a while now. Atrac's consistantly finishes last in multiple codec listening tests but people who listen to Atrac through the "colored" Sony devices usually say different.

There is too much analyzing and testing going on. The point seems to be lost. This is not audiophile. It is portable consumer electronics. Apple and Sony are out to get Joe Schmoe who is viewed as a sheep who doesn't know any better and probably listens to his DAP with the included crapbuds.

Neither company has made any real improvements(soundwise) to their devices since their first incarnations. Both players should have had their respective EQ deficiences fixed by now. But with ipods selling like hotcakes Apple has little incentive to fix eq or battery issues. Sony is taking the size and battery life road trying to cut into the ipod marketshare. They don't even put SQ first! They both could do better but that means costlier components and lower profit margin. Their SQ is as good as they where willing to go costwise. They
have each chosen a style whether it be more neutral or colored.

SQ is personal and subjective. Bangraman chooses ipod. I chose Sony(HD3).
Listen and choose what you like. Neither of these players is going to win best in sound quality anyway.

 

[bangraman]

It's all just totally gone over heads, hasn't it?

 

[abitdeef]

Here it is in a nutshell:

These are not 30 dollar mp3 cd players, The point is you can't get a flat neutral signal fron the sony and the other players in the test you can.

It's not the end of the world, but you should start with a flat neutral signal to keep the integrity of the recording- then be able to add eq.

Its no secret sony colours their sound , but what bangraman is saying is for it to be voted best sounding with eq off- is that fair to iaudio , iriver , and ipod who have all been shown to be flat and neutral under load.

This whole thread was about the cnet test, I have and love the player- but bangraman has a valid point any way you slice it. It's not about IF sony colours their sound or not. It's about is that little bass boost going to make it stand out from the other daps in the test. After my listening tests - I think most likely yes.

Oh and i do agree with jant 71 , after I listened to my friends iaudio x5 - I think it stands above ipod and the sony sound wise imho.