[Underdog311]

The HD5 looks like total garbage anyway.

 

[rab10]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bangraman At flat EQ with the same test load, all the other players that I've measured either measure flat, or players which are affected by a bass falloff due to the same problem as the iPod eventually measure flat but not beyond. I'll have new results in a week or so.

New posts look good, always an interesting read. Thanks for your contributions.

Does The NW-HD5's little secret also apply to the HD1 and HD3? Sony Vaio Pocket Player?

It would be interesting if you have had a chance to listen to the iAudio X5 and/or Sony Vaio Pocket. I would be interested in reading what you have to say about those DAPS as compared to the ones that you favor.

Thanks!

 

[abitdeef]

By bangraman :What? did I plug it into a USB1 port?". So my focus became functional more than sonic. And in the end the daily slowness just got to me as well as the squinting in a variety of light situations and I stopped using them. The LCD-based iRiver flash players and the Creative Muvo's may have less impressive displays but you can see them in any light. On the other hand, iRiver's OLED N10 is actually worse than the Sony.


Couldn't agree more! I think it is usb 1 on the 507 , cause the tranfer is slow as hell. Thanks for the imput, the cowon is looking better and better - I can get it for 30.00 dollars less then the nw hd5.(even though i will probably never use half its features).

 

[halcyon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by breez WTH? Did they forget to look at the scale! It's not going to be audible.

Relatively loq Q resonances of even up to 0.1 dB (diff) can audible.

This is psychoacoustics, not engineering rule of thumbs.

When the two don't agree, psychoacoustics is right, because it's based on REAL listening test on REAL humans, using REAL listening test methodology.

References available on request, but as a quick ref, you can look at: Wicker & Fastl 'Psychoacoustics' (2nd ed), or Brian Moore 'Introduction to Psychology of hearing (5th ed).

I think there's something funny going on with the HD5's output (or decoder stage). Hmm...

regards,
halcyon

PS Most headphones represent themselves as a non-linear impedance load. This means that impedance load measurements with a headhone X (with a nominal characteristic impedance of 16Ohm) may not apply to another headphone with a nominal char impedance of 16Ohm. Why? Because the impedance response curves are not straight and may not be equal.

 

[titaniumx3]

I wonder if anyone has done tests like this with say the creative zen touch? I'm pretty sure theres something awkward about the zen touch; the difference in sound between the original and latest firmware is huge.

 

[SDA]

Neat tests. I have to admit that I think the sonic differences are coming from something else, just because I have a hard time believing that a difference that small on that graph could be causing this. Still, that's just my opinion.. and the fact that it's there at all is at least worth talking about, right?

Quote:

When the two don't agree, psychoacoustics is right, because it's based on REAL listening test on REAL humans, using REAL listening test methodology.

Who's to say that this thing is the cause of whatever audible difference there is? bangraman said it himself, it could well be something else. It's not as if everything else is identical with these players, not by a long shot.

When the two don't agree, look very carefully at both to see if you can spot where the differences might be coming from. Generalizations are dangerous.

 

[KeanosMagicHat]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bangraman It's surprisingly noticeble for such a small deviation and definitely makes the HD5 sound 'nicer'

Probably missing the point of this thread hugely but surely this should be the conclusion?

If it sounds "nice" why does the fact that there may have been some technical jiggery pokery behind this demean the player in some people's view?

Surely if the sound quality is good Sony's sound engineers should be applauded for whatever they have done behind the scenes to achieve this?

Or is that what's happening here? Perhaps it's a language barrier?

 

[sonance]

If you look at the iPod's headphone output frequency response into a typical resistive load representing a connected pair of headphones, the bass response from 0-100hz makes the < 0.5db variance from the Sony look exemplary. The 0-100hz range requires the most power from the headphone amp and it reacts differently depending on the connected load. I don't know if your rightmark analysis takes that into account. Would the response curve look the same into a 120ohm load? How about an ultra low load such as typical IEMs or ultra high load such as some of the Beyers? The bass response would likely be affected the most by changing loads.
The effect of your headphones would be *far* greater than that < 0.5db variance.

 

[bangraman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeanosMagicHat Probably missing the point of this thread hugely but surely this should be the conclusion? If it sounds "nice" why does the fact that there may have been some technical jiggery pokery behind this demean the player in some people's view? Surely if the sound quality is good Sony's sound engineers should be applauded for whatever they have done behind the scenes to achieve this? Or is that what's happening here? Perhaps it's a language barrier?

The sound quality is not that great... It is OK, even good in general but not exemplary. That's the issue. Perhaps there is a language barrier... I'l lhave to go and reread my post later.

 

[bangraman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonance If you look at the iPod's headphone output frequency response into a typical resistive load representing a connected pair of headphones, the bass response from 0-100hz makes the < 0.5db variance from the Sony look exemplary. The 0-100hz range requires the most power from the headphone amp and it reacts differently depending on the connected load. I don't know if your rightmark analysis takes that into account. Would the response curve look the same into a 120ohm load? How about an ultra low load such as typical IEMs or ultra high load such as some of the Beyers? The bass response would likely be affected the most by changing loads. The effect of your headphones would be *far* greater than that < 0.5db variance.

We're not talking about the iPod here, which is afflicted by the now well known bass fall-off. So it 'sucked' for the CNET test staff. See, that's an error on Apple's part. Cripple an otherwise very decent player with some distortion and a pronounced falloff at the very low loads you mention.


An increase on the other hand, and if you look at the frequency ranges versus what a person percieves, a very fortuitous frequency range, is something different. And we're not talking about the effects of individual headphones. We're talking about comparison between different DAPS using the same headphone.


In isolation, the choice of headphone is of course the biggest change factor. I use high-impedance phones with the iPod and am pretty happy with the low to mid-bass response. On the other hand, I wouldn't have to hunt as hard to find the headphone with the response and the impedance I wanted with a DAP which wasn't affected by the falloff.

 

[abitdeef]

Well, I orderd the nw-hd5, based on the fact that the cowon x5 that was cheaper is out of stock (and they don't know when they will get more), and the fact that I ordered it from circuit city(15.00$ off + free shipping) online and can take it back to the store by my house if I don't like it.

If it sounds as good as the e507 I will be a happy camper, the small size and battery life sound good to me. I had the iriver h10 - when it was buggy as hell and never used the radio, picture viewer or recording features, so the cowon would probably be overkill for me anyhoo. Although I do like cowon , I have a cw 200 flash player that is some years old (4 maybe ?) and the thing is still going strong and has a rich , warm clean sound.

The hiss will be a deciding factor, if i detect too much with my canal phones- it will go back, im not an audiophile but i had the same thing on an iriver flash player (700 series) and a kenwood digital amp minidisc player. The constant hiss , even though very low drove me nuts. (probably more psychological than anything)

I still have my mini and think it sounds good, but the sound just sounds too processed to me, not enough warmth. I have never listened to and ipod with an amp , that probably improves the sound greatly . Maybe I will buy one some time. Any suggestions?

 

[halcyon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDA Who's to say that this thing is the cause of whatever audible difference there is? bangraman said it himself, it could well be something else. It's not as if everything else is identical with these players, not by a long shot.

But that I didn't write that

Go back and read carefully what I wrote.

Just that fact that fr q resonances of no more than 0.1dB can be discerned by human ear.

I did not and do not claim that the FR measurements are an explanation of how HD-5 sounds.

They can be, but it's not a conclusive proof.

However, the measurements seem to prove that there is something odd going on with the output of hd5.

 

[abitdeef]

Just for kicks when I get the HD5 I will listen to it without eq and compare it to my other players "flat" and see if anything is different with the output. Im no audiophile , but im a musician for a lot of years and have a good ear

Also isn't there a 6 band eq on the thing, I would be interested if all the bands where set to zero , how flat would the signal measure???

 

[sno1man]

halycon, you may be on to something.

Our company makes a product that uses manipulated speech, and the ear is much more sensitive to very small volume changes at lower frequencies then at higher ones. The old 1DB to notice a difference I think applies to white noise, not specific frequencies or groups of them.

As a matter of fact at the upper end (9khz), differences of 6db were hard to detect for some people.

That all being said, i'm sure it's deliberate by sony to do this and it is also present in their flash players as well. The effect is that when you go demo it in the store with the cheap buds supplied, the bass makes it sound a little better to unsophisticated ears.

Shoot, for that matter, my sony shines on the rock and hip hop (because of the bass bump) that I play when I am mobile and it's not a bad thing. I would not want to listen to Rhapsody in Blue with the sony though

 

[dura]

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