The NEW KOSS PRO4AAA Titanium

[skylinedo]

i've heard the old school Koss Pro4AAAs. they sound very neutral with a decent soundstage. also sounded like they were hard to drive (had a similar experience w/ the HD650s out of a cd player). the things were very heavy, and the cup design has molded to my friend's head so wearing glasses is very painful.

a brief history of these was that they were the best headphones on the market, right up until a company named Sennheiser started up

.

looking forward to hearing the new Pro4AAA Ti's

 

[Plastic Buddha]

Well, I tried the PRO/4AAAT's and sent them back immediately. Seriously disappointing.

For comparison, I have Grado SR-80's, Koss PRO/4AA's (2 A's, no T) and Koss PRO/4X. Now I also have Beyerdynamics DT-770's which I bought after I sent back the PRO/4AAAT's.

The design of the PRO/4AAAT's reminds me a lot of the PRO/4X from the early 80's. While those don't exactly have audiophile quality sound, they are very comfortable and great for listening to streaming news broadcasts etc. Both phones have Pneumalite ear cushions and a flexible strap suspended below the spring steel band rather than a cushion attached to it. Distributing pressure evenly is the key to preventing pain with long term headphone use and those do it better than any other design I've seen. The PRO/4AAAT's are a bit bigger and heavier than the PRO/4X, but they are nearly as comfortable, which is one of their few good points.

As far as the sound, the PRO/4AAAT's did beat out the old PRO/4X but were so lacking in definition that I'd have to say I preferred the PRO/4AA's. Features I could hear clearly with either the PRO/4AA's or the Grado's disappeared completely with the PRO/4AAAT's. The one positive thing I have to say about the sound is that the PRO/4AAAT's had a remarkable soundstage, possibly even better than the Beyerdynamics DT-770's, although I didn't have them for a direct comparison. It was so good in fact that I am tempted to suspect they may have a bit of crossfeed built in. They also sounded like garbage with my custom software crossfeed which only makes me more suspicious, and something like that could explain the loss of clarity. Unfortunately, I didn't think to do a balance test which could have proved or disproved this suspicion before I sent them back.

One other minor gripe is that the nice metal cans aren't metal. They are cheesy silver plastic. I don't have a problem with using plastic, but when it's silvery plastic made to look like metal I think it only succeeds in making it look cheap. Maybe that's just me. The cans are also huge and bulky. The old PRO/4AA's are trim in comparison.

These may very well be the last Koss phones I try other than earbuds or something of that nature. They would be decent phones for maybe $70 for general use, but they are not a high end product. The Beyerdynamics DT-770's I got instead are a world apart, bringing out features I didn't hear before even with the SR-80's. In some ways they are too good as I have to use the sibilance filter on my headphone amp to avoid physical pain when listening to low quality streaming audio where the high end is all compression defects. Unfortunately, they are not as comfortable. Even a thick cushion attached to the steel band contacts my pointy head in such a small area that pain is inevitable. The strap suspended below the band is so much better I'm surprised it isn't used by everyone. Maybe Koss patented it.

 

[wnmnkh]

Finally a brief, but the first review for Pro4AAAT! Thank you for info.

 

[jumpinjohn1234]

Thanks a lot for the insight!

 

[mektarus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plastic Buddha Well, I tried the PRO/4AAAT's and sent them back immediately. Seriously disappointing. For comparison, I have Grado SR-80's, Koss PRO/4AA's (2 A's, no T) and Koss PRO/4X. Now I also have Beyerdynamics DT-770's which I bought after I sent back the PRO/4AAAT's. The design of the PRO/4AAAT's reminds me a lot of the PRO/4X from the early 80's. While those don't exactly have audiophile quality sound, they are very comfortable and great for listening to streaming news broadcasts etc. Both phones have Pneumalite ear cushions and a flexible strap suspended below the spring steel band rather than a cushion attached to it. Distributing pressure evenly is the key to preventing pain with long term headphone use and those do it better than any other design I've seen. The PRO/4AAAT's are a bit bigger and heavier than the PRO/4X, but they are nearly as comfortable, which is one of their few good points. As far as the sound, the PRO/4AAAT's did beat out the old PRO/4X but were so lacking in definition that I'd have to say I preferred the PRO/4AA's. Features I could hear clearly with either the PRO/4AA's or the Grado's disappeared completely with the PRO/4AAAT's. The one positive thing I have to say about the sound is that the PRO/4AAAT's had a remarkable soundstage, possibly even better than the Beyerdynamics DT-770's, although I didn't have them for a direct comparison. It was so good in fact that I am tempted to suspect they may have a bit of crossfeed built in. They also sounded like garbage with my custom software crossfeed which only makes me more suspicious, and something like that could explain the loss of clarity. Unfortunately, I didn't think to do a balance test which could have proved or disproved this suspicion before I sent them back. One other minor gripe is that the nice metal cans aren't metal. They are cheesy silver plastic. I don't have a problem with using plastic, but when it's silvery plastic made to look like metal I think it only succeeds in making it look cheap. Maybe that's just me. The cans are also huge and bulky. The old PRO/4AA's are trim in comparison. These may very well be the last Koss phones I try other than earbuds or something of that nature. They would be decent phones for maybe $70 for general use, but they are not a high end product. The Beyerdynamics DT-770's I got instead are a world apart, bringing out features I didn't hear before even with the SR-80's. In some ways they are too good as I have to use the sibilance filter on my headphone amp to avoid physical pain when listening to low quality streaming audio where the high end is all compression defects. Unfortunately, they are not as comfortable. Even a thick cushion attached to the steel band contacts my pointy head in such a small area that pain is inevitable. The strap suspended below the band is so much better I'm surprised it isn't used by everyone. Maybe Koss patented it.

Wow, a review on your very first post! Nice going!! Unfortunately, this just further substantiates that the 60 ohm driver is the only decent thing Koss makes. If you get a chance to try any of Koss' 60 ohm headphones, please don't let this experience keep you from the pleasure of doing so. For as bad as all other Koss headphones seem to be, their 60 ohm phones are among the most respected around here (at least relative to price). Oh, and one more thing...

Welcome to head-fi, sorry about your wallet.

 

[kramer5150]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plastic Buddha Well, I tried the PRO/4AAAT's and sent them back immediately. Seriously disappointing. For comparison, I have Grado SR-80's, Koss PRO/4AA's (2 A's, no T) and Koss PRO/4X. Now I also have Beyerdynamics DT-770's which I bought after I sent back the PRO/4AAAT's. The design of the PRO/4AAAT's reminds me a lot of the PRO/4X from the early 80's. While those don't exactly have audiophile quality sound, they are very comfortable and great for listening to streaming news broadcasts etc. Both phones have Pneumalite ear cushions and a flexible strap suspended below the spring steel band rather than a cushion attached to it. Distributing pressure evenly is the key to preventing pain with long term headphone use and those do it better than any other design I've seen. The PRO/4AAAT's are a bit bigger and heavier than the PRO/4X, but they are nearly as comfortable, which is one of their few good points. As far as the sound, the PRO/4AAAT's did beat out the old PRO/4X but were so lacking in definition that I'd have to say I preferred the PRO/4AA's. Features I could hear clearly with either the PRO/4AA's or the Grado's disappeared completely with the PRO/4AAAT's. The one positive thing I have to say about the sound is that the PRO/4AAAT's had a remarkable soundstage, possibly even better than the Beyerdynamics DT-770's, although I didn't have them for a direct comparison. It was so good in fact that I am tempted to suspect they may have a bit of crossfeed built in. They also sounded like garbage with my custom software crossfeed which only makes me more suspicious, and something like that could explain the loss of clarity. Unfortunately, I didn't think to do a balance test which could have proved or disproved this suspicion before I sent them back. One other minor gripe is that the nice metal cans aren't metal. They are cheesy silver plastic. I don't have a problem with using plastic, but when it's silvery plastic made to look like metal I think it only succeeds in making it look cheap. Maybe that's just me. The cans are also huge and bulky. The old PRO/4AA's are trim in comparison. These may very well be the last Koss phones I try other than earbuds or something of that nature. They would be decent phones for maybe $70 for general use, but they are not a high end product. The Beyerdynamics DT-770's I got instead are a world apart, bringing out features I didn't hear before even with the SR-80's. In some ways they are too good as I have to use the sibilance filter on my headphone amp to avoid physical pain when listening to low quality streaming audio where the high end is all compression defects. Unfortunately, they are not as comfortable. Even a thick cushion attached to the steel band contacts my pointy head in such a small area that pain is inevitable. The strap suspended below the band is so much better I'm surprised it isn't used by everyone. Maybe Koss patented it.

They are 250 ohms... and therefore CONSIDERABLY harder to drive than your SR80 and DT770 (assuming the DT is the 80 ohm model)

Curious.. what did you amp them with while you had them?

Garrett

 

[Plastic Buddha]

Quote:

They are 250 ohms... and therefore CONSIDERABLY harder to drive than your SR80 and DT770 (assuming the DT is the 80 ohm model) Curious.. what did you amp them with while you had them?

Harder to drive in the sense that they require a higher voltage and amplifier slew rate, easier in that they don't require as low a drive impedance and as high a coupling capacitance to avoid cutting off the low end. Either extreme can be a problem.

I was using my Koss HD-100 powered speakers, which don't seem to have any problem with the 250 ohm Beyerdynamic DT-770-PRO-250's. Those sound great except now I'm wondering if I should have held out for the 880's. Oy.

It would be nice if there was a convenient explanation, but my experience was pretty much the same as 'The Sloth' with the MV-1's. It is likely that they really are the same driver in a slightly different package. It's not a near miss or a subtle difference, those phones aren't even close to what they should be at the price.

The only similarity between them and my older PRO/4AA's is the name. The character of the sound is entirely different. In both sound and construction, they really do seem to be more a remake of the PRO/4X's than a continuation of the PRO/4A line. Of course, I don't have any of the previous titaniums and I doubt any of you have or would want a pair of the PRO/4X's, so the comparison is of limited value. I could describe the sound as 'light', 'open' and even 'smooth' (sounds can have textures of a sort for me), but utterly lacking in the detail even the PRO4/AA's can reproduce.

The PRO4/AA's were my favorite headphones and since the DT-770's are essentially too good for a lot of the sound sounces I listen to, I'm sure I'll still use them a lot. Fortunately, I'm only out shipping on the AAAT's.

 

[sigmatron]

the koss pro4aat = 21.oz
koss pro3aat = 11.oz

 

[sigmatron]

hi, how much sound can you from them set away and closed?

 

[kramer5150]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plastic Buddha Harder to drive in the sense that they require a higher voltage and amplifier slew rate, easier in that they don't require as low a drive impedance and as high a coupling capacitance to avoid cutting off the low end. Either extreme can be a problem. I was using my Koss HD-100 powered speakers, which don't seem to have any problem with the 250 ohm Beyerdynamic DT-770-PRO-250's. Those sound great except now I'm wondering if I should have held out for the 880's. Oy. It would be nice if there was a convenient explanation, but my experience was pretty much the same as 'The Sloth' with the MV-1's. It is likely that they really are the same driver in a slightly different package. It's not a near miss or a subtle difference, those phones aren't even close to what they should be at the price. The only similarity between them and my older PRO/4AA's is the name. The character of the sound is entirely different. In both sound and construction, they really do seem to be more a remake of the PRO/4X's than a continuation of the PRO/4A line. Of course, I don't have any of the previous titaniums and I doubt any of you have or would want a pair of the PRO/4X's, so the comparison is of limited value. I could describe the sound as 'light', 'open' and even 'smooth' (sounds can have textures of a sort for me), but utterly lacking in the detail even the PRO4/AA's can reproduce. The PRO4/AA's were my favorite headphones and since the DT-770's are essentially too good for a lot of the sound sounces I listen to, I'm sure I'll still use them a lot. Fortunately, I'm only out shipping on the AAAT's.

Hmmm... Youre using these(!!!)?....

to power and criticaly evaluate high impedence headphones. Hmm... not to dis-credit you any, but I for one am still going to wait and listen to them myself out of a decent amplifier before passing too much judgement.

Just because one high impedence phone sounds good with a certain amp, doesn't necessarily mean another will synnergize particularly well. In fact I'll go out on a limb... I can almost guarantee you are not amping any of your phones to their full potential with this as your amp.

Koss is a real crap-shoot. They have some GEMS in their product lineup, but most of their stuff is junk. So... who knows, maybe there is a really well designed OP amp circuit in there to amplify the headphone outpt.???

Anyone try this phone out of a gilmore, pimeta, pint ... or other similar amp?

Curious... I hope someone brings this can to the national meet.

I'd like to duke it out with my A250.

Heres a pic of me (when I had hair) with my first real headphone... a Pro4x plus, from 1986.

Garrett

 

[Plastic Buddha]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kramer5150 Just because one high impedence phone sounds good with a certain amp, doesn't necessarily mean another will synnergize particularly well. In fact I'll go out on a limb... I can almost guarantee you are not amping any of your phones to their full potential with this as your amp.

I'm sure they weren't. All I can say is that the DT-770 does compare favorably to the PRO/4AA on the HD-100 and the PRO/4AAAT did not, which is quite a dramatic range.

I've since acquired one of the Ramsey kits (which is just some passives and a voltage regulator around LM386's) and, after a few necessary modifications, it's now serviceable. I can't believe they not only used separate volume controls, but linear taper pots with the left on the right and the right on the left. With a stereo volume control and fine balance adjust as well as some extra resistors for de-clicking the sibilance filter and bleeding the electrolytics it is definitely an improvement over the HD-100. If I were really ambitious I'd replace the carbon film resistors with metal film and the aluminum electrolytics with low leakage, low ESR tantalums, but that would be substantially into diminishing returns.

If you interpreted my review as a critical evaluation, then maybe I gave the wrong impression. I leave 'critical' reviews to people with amplifiers in wooden boxes with glowing tubes sticking out the top. I am not really a high end audio guru at all. I just happen to like using headphones (mostly Koss up till now) and I'm not that hard to please, as the HD-100's should illustrate. Mine was an "Oh my God what is this?" review to warn people to try these before buying, or make sure whoever you buy from has a friendly return policy and doesn't charge much for shipping. Maybe some people will like the sound of these. If you are really a DJ and concerned mostly with comfort, isolation, a lifetime warantee and a nice box to carry them in, they might fit the bill quite well, but otherwise I think you have the right idea about trying them at a meet.

Quote:

Heres a pic of me (when I had hair) with my first real headphone... a Pro4x plus, from 1986.

Are the PRO/4X+ all black? It's a bit hard to tell from the picture. When I sent my PRO/4X in for repair, it came back with two of the plastic hinges for the cans black instead of the original tan, and the headband turned black as well. Maybe they only had parts for the PRO/4X+ and had to scrounge.

 

[kramer5150]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plastic Buddha I'm sure they weren't. All I can say is that the DT-770 does compare favorably to the PRO/4AA on the HD-100 and the PRO/4AAAT did not, which is quite a dramatic range. I've since acquired one of the Ramsey kits (which is just some passives and a voltage regulator around LM386's) and, after a few necessary modifications, it's now serviceable. I can't believe they not only used separate volume controls, but linear taper pots with the left on the right and the right on the left. With a stereo volume control and fine balance adjust as well as some extra resistors for de-clicking the sibilance filter and bleeding the electrolytics it is definitely an improvement over the HD-100. If I were really ambitious I'd replace the carbon film resistors with metal film and the aluminum electrolytics with low leakage, low ESR tantalums, but that would be substantially into diminishing returns. If you interpreted my review as a critical evaluation, then maybe I gave the wrong impression. I leave 'critical' reviews to people with amplifiers in wooden boxes with glowing tubes sticking out the top. I am not really a high end audio guru at all. I just happen to like using headphones (mostly Koss up till now) and I'm not that hard to please, as the HD-100's should illustrate. Mine was an "Oh my God what is this?" review to warn people to try these before buying, or make sure whoever you buy from has a friendly return policy and doesn't charge much for shipping. Maybe some people will like the sound of these. If you are really a DJ and concerned mostly with comfort, isolation, a lifetime warantee and a nice box to carry them in, they might fit the bill quite well, but otherwise I think you have the right idea about trying them at a meet. Are the PRO/4X+ all black? It's a bit hard to tell from the picture. When I sent my PRO/4X in for repair, it came back with two of the plastic hinges for the cans black instead of the original tan, and the headband turned black as well. Maybe they only had parts for the PRO/4X+ and had to scrounge.

Yeah all the molded plastic is black, as well as the headband vinyl. There is some chrome trim, and the metal "Y" hangers are silver aluminum.

Ramsey... I dont think Ive seen that name mentioned on this board before. I didn't think they were still in business.

 

[Sovkiller]

First for those headphones you need an amp, second in headphones there is one thing that is called burn in, you need to let then loose their out of the box stiffness for a few hours at least, to send them back right away was not a very good procedure, also dude, the amp used will not make me run right away from them honestly...It leaves a lot to be desired IMHO...

OTOH I'm not saying that you are wrong and that they will be good heapdhones, all the heapdhones I have heard from them till now, except the Portapros, which I own, really suck, in one way of the other....Non of the heapdhones I have heard from them are good heapdhones at all, not sure where those guys have the hears while designing such artifacts, but even when they have 100 years making heapdhones, they still need to learn a lot from other manufacturers in how to make things sound decent at least, this is a classic example in which longevity in the market and experience means absolutelly nothing to me, but it is true nowadays that you can OEM order any driver, that will sound decent, instead of wasting time trying to make your own....

 

[Plastic Buddha]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sovkiller the amp used will not make me run right away from them honestly

Well, you shouldn't. One opinion is hardly a consensus, and these things are so subjective that one person's trash can be someone else's sonic heaven. Since no one else was volunteering and I succumbed to temptation I thought I would share my not the least bit borderline experience with them.

I'm sure the burn-in debate has been done to death here. You can put me in the school of thought that it's mostly if not entirely psychological. I also believe that the point where quality gives way to imagination happens at a much lower price than it would seem from reading ads in audio magazines (although definitely higher than my much derided HD-100's

). Someone once showed me an add for oxygen free copper AC power cords and I darn near hit the floor laughing.

Burn-in is a term from quality assurance. The probability density function for electronic parts failing vs. time in operation starts out high, then decreases dramatically and stays low until gradually increasing around the expected life of the part. I believe the Weibull distribution is generally used to quantify it. Burn-in is a technique where parts or assemblies are put under power, usually at elevated temperatures to speed up the 'clock', to allow parts which are going to fail quickly to do so before they are incorporated into the final product and delivered. This isn't normally done for consumer electronics, but it's important for military and space applications or anywhere else where a failure could be much more of a problem than just having to replace a board when it goes.

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plastic Buddha Well, you shouldn't. One opinion is hardly a consensus, and these things are so subjective that one person's trash can be someone else's sonic heaven. Since no one else was volunteering and I succumbed to temptation I thought I would share my not the least bit borderline experience with them.

And we really appreciate that, till now is the only one, honestly...just that I would like it to be in more closer to optimal conditions than that, as this will diminish the margin for errors....

Quote:

I'm sure the burn-in debate has been done to death here. You can put me in the school of thought that it's mostly if not entirely psychological. I also believe that the point where quality gives way to imagination happens at a much lower price than it would seem from reading ads in audio magazines (although definitely higher than my much derided HD-100's ). Someone once showed me an add for oxygen free copper AC power cords and I darn near hit the floor laughing. Burn-in is a term from quality assurance. The probability density function for electronic parts failing vs. time in operation starts out high, then decreases dramatically and stays low until gradually increasing around the expected life of the part. I believe the Weibull distribution is generally used to quantify it. Burn-in is a technique where parts or assemblies are put under power, usually at elevated temperatures to speed up the 'clock', to allow parts which are going to fail quickly to do so before they are incorporated into the final product and delivered. This isn't normally done for consumer electronics, but it's important for military and space applications or anywhere else where a failure could be much more of a problem than just having to replace a board when it goes.

Dude mechanical "burn in" is real, and it is not only psychological, even though I also believe that there is a huge part, in which you need time to adjust to the new sound, but physically parts needs to loosen up, to work in closer to optimal conditions, same as in a car, an engine, or any other mechanical device, drivers in headphones are electro-mechanical devices, same as speakers, though that applies to them also...of course we are not talking of dramatic changes that make you hate or love one given headphone....As you mentioned, in the electronic side, I have also my reserves as well, as you do, there is a lot of voodoo and mythology there, but in drivers the burn in is real, and that is for sure...