[340519]

Maybe it's hearing damage and my little bit of tinnitus rolled in there as well.

 

[protoss]

I prefer the non-tamed 800 over the S

The Original HD800 is way better on so many levels compare to the S version

People keep on forgetting that a $10 mod makes the original an HD800S with the same levels of the orignal frequency still. So its a win win for the original on many grounds.

 

[MacedonianHero]

The Original HD800 is way better on so many levels compare to the S version

People keep on forgetting that a $10 mod makes the original an HD800S with the same levels of the orignal frequency still. So its a win win for the original on many grounds.

I don't get this...they are basically identically sounding (and measuring headphones) without the obvious 6kHz peak/flaw/colouration in the originals...which is why Sennheiser discontinued them.

 

[protoss]

I don't get this...they are basically identically sounding (and measuring headphones) without the obvious 6kHz peak/flaw/colouration in the originals...which is why Sennheiser discontinued them.

You think they discontuine it because of those things you listed? Or that they sold #50,000 units of it?

2nd thing is I am surprise you think that the original and "S" sounds the same? The "S" sounded veiled? Well to me it did. And it lost the orginal frequency richness of it. The soundstage was also somewhat smaller and detail was tamed also.

 

[MacedonianHero]

You think they discontuine it because of those things you listed? Or that they sold #50,000 units of it?

2nd thing is I am surprise you think that the original and "S" sounds the same? The "S" sounded veiled? Well to me it did. And it lost the orginal frequency richness of it. The soundstage was also somewhat smaller and detail was tamed also.

If they kept selling, they certainly would NOT have discontinued them. Sennheiser is in business to make money. Sorry, I don't understand why they'd stop at 50,000 just because. The lack of a serious flaw at 6kHz does not make the S veiled...rather it made the original peaky/fatiguing. Measurements made by Jude a while ago on his killer setup showed that was the only measured difference (just as Sennheiser stated as well). I'm happy you enjoy the originals...please continue to enjoy them, just that so many of us didn't when the S version came around.

IME, they both are pretty much the exact same headphone except for the obvious flaw in the originals. If you built a coloured setup around the originals that somewhat "hid" this flaw, then I would suggest you give the HD800S a try on a more balanced setup.

 

[donlin]

If they kept selling, they certainly would NOT have discontinued them. Sennheiser is in business to make money. Sorry, I don't understand why they'd stop at 50,000 just because. The lack of a serious flaw at 6kHz does not make the S veiled...rather it made the original peaky/fatiguing. Measurements made by Jude a while ago on his killer setup showed that was the only measured difference (just as Sennheiser stated as well). I'm happy you enjoy the peak...please continue to enjoy it, just that so many of us didn't.

IME, they both are pretty much the exact same headphone except for the obvious flaw in the originals. If you built a coloured setup around the originals that somewhat "hid" this flaw, then I would suggest you give the HD800S a try on a more balanced setup.

Exactly right.

 

[protoss]

If they kept selling, they certainly would NOT have discontinued them

Agree to disagree, your main beef is with the 6k peak I notice. Everything else like you mention is the same.

For me the 6k peak never bother me. And for the other 50k + people. I am also surprise for you to question a decade old flagship headphone that should last forever to say the least?
So the question is, what is a real (not talking about the HD600/HD650) flagship that should or can last over a decade? Come on buddy this is far fetch? The mighty R10 didnt last a decade? The Gods, Omega and Orpheus didnt last a decade? Most legends barely hit 1000 units. And again with your logic to put it kindly, the R10, L3000, He90 and the Omega all sucks because they were all discontinue and couldn't sell?

One of my favorite headphone of all time the Stax SR-007MK1 and I believe Sprizter and Jude here also, lasted 1997 to 2007. So, than with your logic MK1 suck because it was discontinue in 2007 and the 007MK2 took its place? So in theory its better right? Lol please....

And if I am correct isnt Stax SR-009 discontinue or on the verge of being discontinued? Its currently at #5000 units. Compare to #50,000 units of the HD800 (2009-2019). So, I am assuming you will say the 009 sucks because the 009S Is now better?

Its not about if a headphone can sell. Its about that "decade" number overall I notice. We should all be happy and joyful that a headphone can even last a full decade at least.

Stax Omega lasted 3 years..... close to 0.001% of the population will never get to hear this. Only #600 units or less

Owell.

 

[johnjen]

And to add to this…
This listener fatigue issue revolves around the myth that the 6KHz peak is the culprit.
It has been indirectly pointed at in private conversations with Senn engineers, that this is not the source of this 'problem'.

Rather it's the amount of overshoot on the leading edge which is the source, and is not strictly a frequency domain related situation.
They deliberately designed in a considerable amount of overshoot to help them sell, since the initial listening impression convinces mostly older buyers (who are more financially enabled), with a seemingly more detailed and 'lively' top end, at least initially.

I call this the Bose effect, where the initial listening impressions seem most impressive, enough so to make the purchase, which is the point of a manufacturer, to make products that will sell.
This is marketing 'steering' the design to marked degree, one that is 'good' for the bottom line, but certainly isn't an example of the 'best' (in terms of SQ) that they are capable of producing.

Sennheiser has the technology and experience and capability to design and manufacture HPs with exquisite SQ.
And when this overshoot is ameliorated, the exquisite SQ these HP's are capable of, comes to the fore all the more.
But they are, as was pointed out above, in the business to make money, not to 'cater' to audiophools engaged in a hobby.

And as long as us customers don't 'challenge' their assumptions, and no one provides a 'real' solution to this situation, they have little motivation to 'fix' this issue.
After all they know from experience what it takes to sell what they design and produce.

And maintaining the 6KHz myth just proves to them we will 'put up with it' so to speak.

And the fact that they utilized a Helmholtz resonator to address a problem that really isn't at the heart of this listener fatigue issue, just proves the point all the more.
As in, putting an acoustic 'dampener' between the driver and our ears is, in my estimation, a decided step backwards if exquisite SQ is the goal.

And as I wrote previously, 'we don't want the sizzle, we want the steak'.

JJ

 

[gLer]

Bottom line is this, if you’ve built a system around the HD800 - which is very amp specific - you don’t need an HD800S. I have the HD800 and heard the HD800S several time in my system and there’s absolutely no advantage to ‘sidegrading’. That said if you started off with an HD800S and built a system around that, you’re not going to get any perceptible benefit sidegrading to the original. Unless you need that extra band of higher frequencies and want to push the bass a bit more with EQ, which the original does better than the S. Both camps should be happy and allies, not enemies

 

[J Mirra]

Both the 800 and 800s thread have beef about the two variants.
All I know is my 800 are the best headphones I have heard for my preference, if that does not align with others choices it does not matter as they are on my head and they are not listening to what I am.
If the S or any other model / brand is perfect for you then that is all that matters.
Forget the hate and feel the positive vibes from the frequencies of your favorite cans.

 

[340519]

If they kept selling, they certainly would NOT have discontinued them. Sennheiser is in business to make money. Sorry, I don't understand why they'd stop at 50,000 just because. The lack of a serious flaw at 6kHz does not make the S veiled...rather it made the original peaky/fatiguing. Measurements made by Jude a while ago on his killer setup showed that was the only measured difference (just as Sennheiser stated as well). I'm happy you enjoy the originals...please continue to enjoy them, just that so many of us didn't when the S version came around.

IME, they both are pretty much the exact same headphone except for the obvious flaw in the originals. If you built a coloured setup around the originals that somewhat "hid" this flaw, then I would suggest you give the HD800S a try on a more balanced setup.

That's why I have them both.

 

[340519]

Agree to disagree, your main beef is with the 6k peak I notice. Everything else like you mention is the same.

For me the 6k peak never bother me. And for the other 50k + people. I am also surprise for you to question a decade old flagship headphone that should last forever to say the least?
So the question is, what is a real (not talking about the HD600/HD650) flagship that should or can last over a decade? Come on buddy this is far fetch? The mighty R10 didnt last a decade? The Gods, Omega and Orpheus didnt last a decade? Most legends barely hit 1000 units. And again with your logic to put it kindly, the R10, L3000, He90 and the Omega all sucks because they were all discontinue and couldn't sell?

One of my favorite headphone of all time the Stax SR-007MK1 and I believe Sprizter and Jude here also, lasted 1997 to 2007. So, than with your logic MK1 suck because it was discontinue in 2007 and the 007MK2 took its place? So in theory its better right? Lol please....

And if I am correct isnt Stax SR-009 discontinue or on the verge of being discontinued? Its currently at #5000 units. Compare to #50,000 units of the HD800 (2009-2019). So, I am assuming you will say the 009 sucks because the 009S Is now better?

Its not about if a headphone can sell. Its about that "decade" number overall I notice. We should all be happy and joyful that a headphone can even last a full decade at least.

Stax Omega lasted 3 years..... close to 0.001% of the population will never get to hear this. Only #600 units or less

Owell.

Excellent post.

 

[340519]

Both the 800 and 800s thread have beef about the two variants.
All I know is my 800 are the best headphones I have heard for my preference, if that does not align with others choices it does not matter as they are on my head and they are not listening to what I am.
If the S or any other model / brand is perfect for you then that is all that matters.
Forget the hate and feel the positive vibes from the frequencies of your favorite cans.

Absolutely.

 

[340519]

And to add to this…
This listener fatigue issue revolves around the myth that the 6KHz peak is the culprit.
It has been indirectly pointed at in private conversations with Senn engineers, that this is not the source of this 'problem'.

Rather it's the amount of overshoot on the leading edge which is the source, and is not strictly a frequency domain related situation.
They deliberately designed in a considerable amount of overshoot to help them sell, since the initial listening impression convinces mostly older buyers (who are more financially enabled), with a seemingly more detailed and 'lively' top end, at least initially.

I call this the Bose effect, where the initial listening impressions seem most impressive, enough so to make the purchase, which is the point of a manufacturer, to make products that will sell.
This is marketing 'steering' the design to marked degree, one that is 'good' for the bottom line, but certainly isn't an example of the 'best' (in terms of SQ) that they are capable of producing.

Sennheiser has the technology and experience and capability to design and manufacture HPs with exquisite SQ.
And when this overshoot is ameliorated, the exquisite SQ these HP's are capable of, comes to the fore all the more.
But they are, as was pointed out above, in the business to make money, not to 'cater' to audiophools engaged in a hobby.

And as long as us customers don't 'challenge' their assumptions, and no one provides a 'real' solution to this situation, they have little motivation to 'fix' this issue.
After all they know from experience what it takes to sell what they design and produce.

And maintaining the 6KHz myth just proves to them we will 'put up with it' so to speak.

And the fact that they utilized a Helmholtz resonator to address a problem that really isn't at the heart of this listener fatigue issue, just proves the point all the more.
As in, putting an acoustic 'dampener' between the driver and our ears is, in my estimation, a decided step backwards if exquisite SQ is the goal.

And as I wrote previously, 'we don't want the sizzle, we want the steak'.

JJ

Well the 800 is the best sounding pair of headphone I've ever heard and I have been involved with high-end audio for over 30 years. So whatever it is that you speak of does not impact the final blissful result.

 

[Hifiearspeakers]

Agree to disagree, your main beef is with the 6k peak I notice. Everything else like you mention is the same.

For me the 6k peak never bother me. And for the other 50k + people. I am also surprise for you to question a decade old flagship headphone that should last forever to say the least?
So the question is, what is a real (not talking about the HD600/HD650) flagship that should or can last over a decade? Come on buddy this is far fetch? The mighty R10 didnt last a decade? The Gods, Omega and Orpheus didnt last a decade? Most legends barely hit 1000 units. And again with your logic to put it kindly, the R10, L3000, He90 and the Omega all sucks because they were all discontinue and couldn't sell?

One of my favorite headphone of all time the Stax SR-007MK1 and I believe Sprizter and Jude here also, lasted 1997 to 2007. So, than with your logic MK1 suck because it was discontinue in 2007 and the 007MK2 took its place? So in theory its better right? Lol please....

And if I am correct isnt Stax SR-009 discontinue or on the verge of being discontinued? Its currently at #5000 units. Compare to #50,000 units of the HD800 (2009-2019). So, I am assuming you will say the 009 sucks because the 009S Is now better?

Its not about if a headphone can sell. Its about that "decade" number overall I notice. We should all be happy and joyful that a headphone can even last a full decade at least.

Stax Omega lasted 3 years..... close to 0.001% of the population will never get to hear this. Only #600 units or less

Owell.

You have a reading comprehension issue. He clearly never said anything about either model sucking! He said they’re essentially the same except for the 6K peak, which they are! He also said you can prefer either one. But preferring one over the other DOESN’T mean the other one sucks.

Can you not even recognize your own confirmation bias? He was defending the S, not attacking the original 800. YOU’RE the one doing the trashing and attacking!