[ruthieandjohn]

@hedonism Are you able to go back to the cheap bluetooth speaker and listen again, to see if you get the 9:30 rush as before?

So much music listening is actually an interplay between the music and the listener, and much of the experience can be based on how the listener is coming to the music at that moment. Further, perhaps there is a fundamental aspect of music that occurs in loudspeaker listening, no matter how poor the loudspeaker, that even the best headphone system misses. Perhaps it is as simple as the musicians staying fixed in position when you turn your head with speakers, while with headphones, they move with you (unless you have a Smythe Realiser!)

Excellent post!

 

[longbowbbs]

 

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

Hey guys and gals, I'd just like to share an experience I had with everyone here for better or for worse.

Today, while I was hanging out with a few friends, I put some classical music on in the background with crappy Bluetooth speakers (JBL Pulse I). To be specific, I put on Tchaikovsky's violin concerto. Here it is (in parts unfortunately) on youtube: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ok0IJhFGDpk.

By the way, this is an excellent recording in both sound quality and actual performance, and surpasses any other version of the piece I've listened to so far. I would highly recommend getting this CD if you're into this kind of stuff.

Anyway, I want to focus in on a particular moment while listening to the piece on that crappy speaker. It was around 9:30 in the video. You can hear the tempo of the piece rapidly accelerating and overall, things are getting pretty exciting. I can actually feel my heartbeat quickening along with the rising tempo, despite the low quality of the Bluetooth speakers. One of my friends even mentioned that she was getting stressed out (in a good way) while listening to that moment.

All in all, it felt great to be so into the music. It's been too long since I felt an emotional and almost physical reaction while listening to music.

So naturally, once I go home I try to reproduce this moment on my own system: Schiit Bifrost Uber into Bryston BHA-1 and (obviously) my HD800s. I queue up the piece in lossless, and I start listening. Great imaging, soundstage, and general fidelity as per usual on a high quality recording with the HD800s.

Anticipation rises as the part I mentioned previously draws near. Finally, it arrives and then... nothing. I don't feel anything. Sure it sounds great and all, but what happened to the quickening pulse and the excitement!?

At this point, a million questions are swirling in my head. Why should a $100 Bluetooth speaker illicit such an emotional response (which I feel is one of the most important attributes of any audio system) while my $3000+ headphone setup cannot? Is this due to the inherit advantages that speakers have over headphones? Was it just the state of mind I was in previously? Is it due to my amp synergy (I've heard reports that the pairing is flat and not very engaging)? Is it because of the HD800s "clinical" sound signature? Is my DAC bottlenecking my system? And so on and so forth.

So far, I've found no answers. Just more questions. Should I try modding the headphones? Should I try different amps? How about a new DAC? Would getting different headphones work? Why not just drop the headphone game altogether and move on to speakers? Maybe I'm just not in the mood anymore and should try again another time.

But stubbornly, I try listening to the piece once more. Since I'm frustrated, I decide to critically analyze every single second I listen to. So far so good. I'm thinking things like: "Wow, I can actually hear the reverberation of the violin against the room" and "I'm glad the HD800s are so revealing and transparent or else I wouldn't be able to fully appreciate the extremely rich and vibrant tone that Hilary Hahn produces with her violin. I mean, the violin is seriously singing right now!" I guess I'm not much of an analytical listener, huh.

Soon enough that dreaded moment at 9:30 arrives. And guess what? I'm too lost in the music to care. I do notice that there's still no faster heartbeat or whatever, but at this point I don't mind anymore. I'm enjoying the music goddammit! So what if I didn't get the exact same reaction as when I listened to that part before?

Instead, I keep on listening and I get close to the end of the first movement. The movement is getting to its climax and and then... could it be... yes! Hallelujah!! There it is. A slight shivering sensation coupled with a triumphant feeling from the music. All is well. My headphone setup is indeed capable of getting an emotional response from me, which again, is the most important aspect of any audio system to me.

So what's the point of all this? I'm not entirely sure; I felt like it was worth sharing though. Maybe my point is to remind you all to enjoy your music. Maybe it's to let you know that upgrading your system isn't all that important. Maybe there's no point at all. Who knows? Who cares?

Anyway, sorry for the long rambling post, and thanks for reading! I hope my story helps some of you somehow.

PS. I'd still like to know how to improve my system despite my epiphany. Its just not bothering me as much anymore. So if you got any suggestions...

 

Hedonism, Sometimes the moment can transcend gear. Just like hearing a particular piece of music can trigger a powerful memory, the exact situation can surpass what is delivering that individual moment. Enjoy the memory of that moment and do not be so concerned about recreating lightning in a bottle.
 

 

[icebear]

 

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

Hey guys and gals, I'd just like to share an experience I had with everyone here for better or for worse.

Today, while I was hanging out with a few friends, I put some classical music on in the background with crappy Bluetooth speakers (JBL Pulse I). To be specific, I put on Tchaikovsky's violin concerto. Here it is (in parts unfortunately) on youtube: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ok0IJhFGDpk.

By the way, this is an excellent recording in both sound quality and actual performance, and surpasses any other version of the piece I've listened to so far. I would highly recommend getting this CD if you're into this kind of stuff.

Anyway, I want to focus in on a particular moment while listening to the piece on that crappy speaker. It was around 9:30 in the video. You can hear the tempo of the piece rapidly accelerating and overall, things are getting pretty exciting. I can actually feel my heartbeat quickening along with the rising tempo, despite the low quality of the Bluetooth speakers. One of my friends even mentioned that she was getting stressed out (in a good way) while listening to that moment.

All in all, it felt great to be so into the music. It's been too long since I felt an emotional and almost physical reaction while listening to music.

So naturally, once I go home I try to reproduce this moment on my own system: Schiit Bifrost Uber into Bryston BHA-1 and (obviously) my HD800s. I queue up the piece in lossless, and I start listening. Great imaging, soundstage, and general fidelity as per usual on a high quality recording with the HD800s.

Anticipation rises as the part I mentioned previously draws near. Finally, it arrives and then... nothing. I don't feel anything. Sure it sounds great and all, but what happened to the quickening pulse and the excitement!?

At this point, a million questions are swirling in my head. Why should a $100 Bluetooth speaker illicit such an emotional response (which I feel is one of the most important attributes of any audio system) while my $3000+ headphone setup cannot? Is this due to the inherit advantages that speakers have over headphones? Was it just the state of mind I was in previously? Is it due to my amp synergy (I've heard reports that the pairing is flat and not very engaging)? Is it because of the HD800s "clinical" sound signature? Is my DAC bottlenecking my system? And so on and so forth.

So far, I've found no answers. Just more questions. Should I try modding the headphones? Should I try different amps? How about a new DAC? Would getting different headphones work? Why not just drop the headphone game altogether and move on to speakers? Maybe I'm just not in the mood anymore and should try again another time.

But stubbornly, I try listening to the piece once more. Since I'm frustrated, I decide to critically analyze every single second I listen to. So far so good. I'm thinking things like: "Wow, I can actually hear the reverberation of the violin against the room" and "I'm glad the HD800s are so revealing and transparent or else I wouldn't be able to fully appreciate the extremely rich and vibrant tone that Hilary Hahn produces with her violin. I mean, the violin is seriously singing right now!" I guess I'm not much of an analytical listener, huh.

Soon enough that dreaded moment at 9:30 arrives. And guess what? I'm too lost in the music to care. I do notice that there's still no faster heartbeat or whatever, but at this point I don't mind anymore. I'm enjoying the music goddammit! So what if I didn't get the exact same reaction as when I listened to that part before?

Instead, I keep on listening and I get close to the end of the first movement. The movement is getting to its climax and and then... could it be... yes! Hallelujah!! There it is. A slight shivering sensation coupled with a triumphant feeling from the music. All is well. My headphone setup is indeed capable of getting an emotional response from me, which again, is the most important aspect of any audio system to me.

So what's the point of all this? I'm not entirely sure; I felt like it was worth sharing though. Maybe my point is to remind you all to enjoy your music. Maybe it's to let you know that upgrading your system isn't all that important. Maybe there's no point at all. Who knows? Who cares?

Anyway, sorry for the long rambling post, and thanks for reading! I hope my story helps some of you somehow.

PS. I'd still like to know how to improve my system despite my epiphany. Its just not bothering me as much anymore. So if you got any suggestions...

 

 
Hi there, here my best guess :
 
Our brain is doing a lot of processing with all incoming signals be it optical or acoustic, to compare to previous experience, to recognize and decide. With the "crappy" bluetooth speaker from mp3 file, the brains of the listeners have to work pretty hard, that why your friend mentioned being stressed out. It's not because the music is so exciting but the brain needs to do so much processing. This will give so called listerner fatigue pretty quickly.
 
When you have a good source and a proper chain the music will be there with all details that transport the excitement of the performance of the musicians and give you goosebumps or make your hairs stand up BUT is will be relaxing and not stress the listener out.

 

[Hedonism]

Oh boy, thanks for all the responses. Didn't think my early morning ramblings would appeal to many.
 
 

   
Hi there, here my best guess :
 
Our brain is doing a lot of processing with all incoming signals be it optical or acoustic, to compare to previous experience, to recognize and decide. With the "crappy" bluetooth speaker from mp3 file, the brains of the listeners have to work pretty hard, that why your friend mentioned being stressed out. It's not because the music is so exciting but the brain needs to do so much processing. This will give so called listerner fatigue pretty quickly.
 
When you have a good source and a proper chain the music will be there with all details that transport the excitement of the performance of the musicians and give you goosebumps or make your hairs stand up BUT is will be relaxing and not stress the listener out.

 
Interesting theory! Do you mean like how Best Buys and what-not will preset their display televisions with super bright and sharp settings to entice the passerby with flashiness, but when you try to purchase the TV and bring it home with those settings, you'll soon find it glaring and painful to watch? I feel like that would depend on the sound signature of the bluetooth speakers, rather than the low-quality source of the music, right? Regardless, I dislike the notion of mp3 files and $100 Bluetooth speakers garnering a more visceral reaction than my "good" set-up, even if it was extremely short-term, if only because I spent so much money on my system! 

 
 

  Hedonism, Sometimes the moment can transcend gear. Just like hearing a particular piece of music can trigger a powerful memory, the exact situation can surpass what is delivering that individual moment. Enjoy the memory of that moment and do not be so concerned about recreating lightning in a bottle.
 

 
Wise words, friend! After some thought, this is the most likely explanation. Trying to force it when I'm not really feeling in the right mood is silly. After all, sometimes I'll be listening intently for hours on end to my music and enjoying every second of it, yet other times, I'll zone out and daydream, and by the time I come to, I'll realize I didn't even know what I was listening to. I'll just have to wait for the next moment. Cheers to that! 

 
 

@hedonism Are you able to go back to the cheap bluetooth speaker and listen again, to see if you get the 9:30 rush as before?

So much music listening is actually an interplay between the music and the listener, and much of the experience can be based on how the listener is coming to the music at that moment. Further, perhaps there is a fundamental aspect of music that occurs in loudspeaker listening, no matter how poor the loudspeaker, that even the best headphone system misses. Perhaps it is as simple as the musicians staying fixed in position when you turn your head with speakers, while with headphones, they move with you (unless you have a Smythe Realiser!)

Excellent post!

 
Thanks! I can, but my bet is that this time, I won't get that rush. Upon further reflecting, my guess is that it's just one of those rare splendid moments that sneak up on you and vanish just as quick. When you're just in the right mood to listen to music. 
 
I agree with all your points. Especially the point on how the listening is coming to the music at the moment, which I believe is what happened with me there. There are so many variables floating around in regards to the enjoyment of music!
 
And considering the fact that most music is specifically mastered towards speakers, it's no surprise that even great headphone systems can't effectively reproduce sound on the level that speakers can. However, I hope that didn't play a big factor in what I experienced, especially since the speakers were a) streaming via Bluetooth b) playing at low fidelity c) $100 vs. several thousands. 
 
 

 
Today I listened to some Q Acoustic Concept 20 speakers which were on special at my local hifi store, they blew me away with their realism and I ended up buying them to be delivered in a few days time. When i got home I listened to my HD800 system (same CD) and was also blown away with what I heard but for different reasons. I know that the headphone system is  producing a false soundstage but I can still appreciate it and the strengths of the system is it's ability to coherently produce all frequencies. I also appreciate how the speaker is more accurately reproducing the soundstage and I can overlook it's colouration and poor low frequency response. Today I heard information in the speakers that weren't present in the headphones and vice versa. Our brains mix the headphone right and left channels to form an image. Using speakers the sound from each channel is free to interfere with each other before it even reaches our ears. To cut a long story short and forgetting the physics of sound...most music just isn't designed for headphones. Today I bought some speakers for $AUD 515 which give me a new way to appreciate my music. I appreciate that my HD800 are extremely good at what they do. Both can give a lot of enjoyment and don't buy into that fallacy that if your headphones cost X then equivalent loudspeakers must cost 10 X for the same enjoyment factor.

 
Thanks for your insight! I definitely intend to get into speakers in the future, it's just not quite viable as of the moment. I wasn't even aware of that fallacy! I was under the impression that even a mediocre speaker set-up will wipe the floor of any TOTL headphone system in overall listening experience, if only for the fact that the vast majority of music is mastered towards speakers, not headphones. And also, properly rendered bass that you can actually feel with your entire body. Guess I have a lot more research to do!
 
 
 
@Mortalcoil Thanks for the suggestion. Sorry I don't know how to quote from two pages simultaneously :S. That could definitely be it. As of now, I don't own any "fun" headphones. That might very well be what I'm missing. As for the TH900 audition, I do happen to live in Toronto as well...

 
 
 
Anyway, thanks to everyone for helping me figure this conundrum out. But what I REALLY wanted was a butt-load of enabling comments so that I could justify spending more money on upgrades though!!! Isn't that the spirit of hi-fi?? Oh well, I guess enjoying the music, like I originally said, will suffice...for now! 

 (I'm only half-kidding. Someone help me with this addiction.)

 

[longbowbbs]

 
 
Anyway, thanks to everyone for helping me figure this conundrum out. But what I REALLY wanted was a butt-load of enabling comments so that I could justify spending more money on upgrades though!!! Isn't that the spirit of hi-fi?? Oh well, I guess enjoying the music, like I originally said, will suffice...for now! 

 (I'm only half-kidding. Someone help me with this addiction.)

.....Only the new Orpheus 2 will suffice....Go ye and mortgage the house....

 

[Zoom25]

   
Have'nt tried the Senn cable, imagine its decent though.
 
The BHA-1 really shines in balanced mode although its no slouch in SE either (apparently more current is supplied).  Believe it or not I feel it has a great "synergy" with the TH-900 also even in SE.

Yes I would definitely expect that with the TH-900. My single ended D2000 also sounded really nice with the BHA-1.

 

[Zoom25]

  How have u been? I sold my HE500 long time ago after I bought HD800.  I just have HE-6 and HD800 now.  No more HPs.  

Hey, it's going well, how about you?
 
Yes, I just remembered you did end up selling the HE-500 around that time. I'm almost done with headphone rig completely. Definitely won't be considering any more headphones, DACs, audio transports...only a final headphone amp to put a nail in the coffin. After that going to focus on upgrading my main monitors.
 
BTW are you running stock tubes on your WA22 or upgraded?

 

[Taowolf51]

   
Software EQ - not really an option. Only my desktop rig runs via computer. My other high end rigs are now all moved away from a computer. Hardware EQ is an option, but a decent one that I like will run me a few grand. Plus, I usually pick components nowadays that are well within the tolerable range and don't need EQ.
 

 
Perhaps the MiniDSP? $100, and offers software EQ away from the computer. Might be something worth playing around with.
 
May not be up to your standards, but could be a cool toy to see if you find it worth going with something more high end.

 

[koiloco]

 
Hey, it's going well, how about you?
 
Yes, I just remembered you did end up selling the HE-500 around that time. I'm almost done with headphone rig completely. Definitely won't be considering any more headphones, DACs, audio transports...only a final headphone amp to put a nail in the coffin. After that going to focus on upgrading my main monitors.
 
BTW are you running stock tubes on your WA22 or upgraded?

 
I am doing great.  My WA22 has upgraded tubes.  Nothing super fancy, just Kenrad 6SN7, Tungsol 5998.  I've tried other combo but for some reasons, I prefer these for the genres to which I listen.

 

[shultzee]

@  Hedonism     After spending the last couple of years going down the rabbit hole on headphone gear I recently picked up a very good pair of monitors   (Wharfdale Jade 3)  .   Totally different experience than my headphone rig.   I thoroughly enjoy going back and forth between the Wharfdales and my HD800.    Both are excellent and yet very different in their presentation.  

 

[MrMan]

Does anyone know the max mW or W handling of hd800 @ 300ohm ?
 
I ask this because I listened to the hd800 on a powerhouse of a system and they sounded amazing. I ideally want to get an amp that will produce that amount of power without ruining the headphones. 

 

[Mr Rick]

  Does anyone know the max mW or W handling of hd800 @ 300ohm ?
 
I ask this because I listened to the hd800 on a powerhouse of a system and they sounded amazing. I ideally want to get an amp that will produce that amount of power without ruining the headphones. 

This site claims 500mW.
 
http://www.kenrockwell.com/audio/sennheiser/hd800.htm#spex

 

[bearFNF]

  Does anyone know the max mW or W handling of hd800 @ 300ohm ?
 
I ask this because I listened to the hd800 on a powerhouse of a system and they sounded amazing. I ideally want to get an amp that will produce that amount of power without ruining the headphones. 

From the manual (page 10):

 

[MrMan]

What is the EN 60-268-7 part ? Most headphones I've seen rate it per their ohm rating. Ex 500mw @ 300 ohms. 

 

[bearFNF]

  What is the EN 60-268-7 part ? Most headphones I've seen rate it per their ohm rating. Ex 500mw @ 300 ohms. 

it is a European Standard, they are not for general distribution and must be purchased.
The title of the latest version I could find is BS EN 60268-7:2011 "Sound system equipment. Headphones and earphones"
 
 
Basically it tells manufacturers what to include in its specifications and methods of measurement. It also provides means to classify the different products.
 
You can google it and read more or go buy the specification for the whole thing.