[mvule]

Your thoughts, @Evshrug ?

 

[Ichos]

I have uploaded my hxosplus review of the HD560S.
Please enjoy!

https://www.hxosplus.gr/reviews/sennheiser-hd560s-review/

 

[CTR640]

Wow, it's been a while lol. How can I replace the pads? It's like the earpads are glued?

 

[Ichos]

No they are not glued.
It is very easy.
The same as 599/598

 

[CTR640]

Yep, just found out a few moments ago. It looks like they are stuck on plastic too. Bit of a shame tho in case of playing with pads for other headphones.

 

[gubar]

I've found out the impedence of the headphone amp on my denon ceol n9. It's 80ohms. Does this spell bad news for using headphones of 120ohm impedence, and would this cause distortion?

As far as I can tell from diyaudioheaven review, this should mean an increase of a small amount of db in some bass frequencies, but not be a big deal?

 

[goodyfresh]

I've found out the impedence of the headphone amp on my denon ceol n9. It's 80ohms. Does this spell bad news for using headphones of 120ohm impedence, and would this cause distortion?

As far as I can tell from diyaudioheaven review, this should mean an increase of a small amount of db in some bass frequencies, but not be a big deal?

EIGHTY ohms? No solid-state headphone amp should have impedance that high, that's nuts. It's obviously made for speakers with very little attention paid by Denon to the headphone output if they couldn't be bothered to get the impedance lower than that, OOF. More on that in my fourth point below; this could be a MAJOR issue.

Okay, so a couple concerns: First of all, with the HD560s, according to Solderdude's measurements you already looked at over at DIY Audio Heaven, impedance that high will bloat the bass a bit (only by a couple decibels, but still) in the mid-bass centered at 60Hz, the resonance-frequency of the driver. Solderdude recommends an impedance below 30ohms for the HD560s, but ideally speaking you should have an amp with an output-impedance as low as possible, like my Fiio K5 Pro which has a spec saying it's around 1.5ohms and independent measurements showing about 2ohms. Solderdude measured that with a 120ohm impedance amp, the level of bass from the HD560s increases in a hump centered at 60Hz, with the increase at 60Hz being a little over 2.5dB. An 80ohm impedance will cause nearly as much of that as 120ohms will.

Secondly, yes it could POSSIBLY increase distortion, although whether distortion increases with amplifier impedance depends on the particular headphones and no one has measured it in the case of the HD560s. But generally speaking, there's always a CHANCE of it.

Third, along with boosting the frequency-response in the mid-bass, a higher output-impedance from the amp can cause ringing/lingering in the bass and low-mids in the time-domain, making the sound more bloated than just the increase in frequency-response alone causes, and which can cause the bass to bleed into the low mids and the mids so that the overall signature becomes a bit muddied.

But fourth, and perhaps the biggest concern: As I said, if a solid-state headphone amp has an impedance that ridiculously high, then there was probably very little care or attention put into its engineering. Based on that impedance spec, the Ceol N9 is probably meant just for speakers, with the inclusion of a headphone-amp section being a mere afterthought that Denon hardly put any effort into. I wouldn't be surprised if that headphone output's noise-floor, distortion, time-domain errors, etc., all measure very poorly. For a headphone as detail-resolving as the HD560s, you really want a good source properly meant for headphones; the Ceol N9 unfortunately seems likely to have very sub-par engineering in the headphone-amp section (although the speaker-output is quite good), and you probably shouldn't drive ANY hi-fi headphones from it if you want to hear anywhere near the full potential of their sound. But the HD560s are especially sensitive to source-quality due to being unusually detail-resolving for anything in this price-range, so a poor source will really do a disservice to them as they'll highlight all of its flaws.

 

[Evshrug]

Your thoughts, @Evshrug ?

Thanks for your patience, as you can imagine I have a lot of reading to do these days
I’ve heard from Sennheiser that I should point people to the official press release,
http://www.sennheiser.com/newsroom/message-from-andreas-and-daniel-sennheiser
But I also quite liked Jude’s take on it after a phone call with Andreas and Daniel:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/whats-up-with-sennheiser-i-asked-the-sennheisers.955716/

I've found out the impedence of the headphone amp on my denon ceol n9. It's 80ohms. Does this spell bad news for using headphones of 120ohm impedence, and would this cause distortion?

As far as I can tell from diyaudioheaven review, this should mean an increase of a small amount of db in some bass frequencies, but not be a big deal?

Well, amplifiers use negative feedback and output resistance to add stability to the circuit. In the case of a home theater receiver, they often use a beefy resistor to adapt the very powerful speaker amp output down to a level that won’t blow out your headphones and eardrums.

The 1:8 impedance ratio is more like a rule of thumb than a hard rule, and the HD 560S does have a bit higher load impedance (headphone impedance) than the average headphone. So, it should do better than most, but you might experience a looseness and muddiness to the sound. Some people like that distortion as a sense of more weighty bass, but it all depends on your taste. A theoretical ideal voltage gain amplifier will have vanishingly low output impedance ratio... that’s why the analog inputs on standalone amplifiers have such massively high impedance, so they can dampen the output of almost any source.

There are other aspects of amp design that will determine the final output quality of an amp, and they can sometimes interact with eachother in interesting and unpredictable ways, so a high output impedance isn’t automatically the sign of a bad amp... but it’s worth considering if you’re listening for tight bass.

 

[gubar]

goodyfresh and Evshrug,

Thanks both for taking the time to reply. I still believe my current pair to be faulty. I'll probably try another pair, and hang onto them if they seem fault free. Someday I'll upgrade my system or buy a headphone amp.

 

[PhazeCrive]

After about 2 years I finally decided to lift the veil on my Sennheiser Momentum 3's. While I loved the extra bass compared to other headphones, I was missing way too many details that I never even knew existed until now. EQ'ing the bass down to let the mids and treble not get swallowed up has made them sound better than ever.

So I was wondering. Would the 560s outperform the Momentum 3 from an audiophile standpoint? Could a dac/amp dongle like the iBasso DC04 power them?

 

[goodyfresh]

After about 2 years I finally decided to lift the veil on my Sennheiser Momentum 3's. While I loved the extra bass compared to other headphones, I was missing way too many details that I never even knew existed until now. EQ'ing the bass down to let the mids and treble not get swallowed up has made them sound better than ever.

So I was wondering. Would the 560s outperform the Momentum 3 from an audiophile standpoint? Could a dac/amp dongle like the iBasso DC04 power them?

The Momentum 3 is closed-back while the HD560s is open-back, so a comparison isn't really fair to the M3... the HD560s will vastly outperform it in every area except sub-bass extension below 30Hz (a sacrifice with almost any open-back dynamic headphone, but the HD560s has FAR better bass-extension than most open-backs). The HD560s has faster drivers with better excursion properties than the Momentum line of headphones, so they will resolve more detail even when compared to an EQ'd Momentum 3. Thanks to being open-back, things will sound more natural and spacious with a noticeably larger soundstage, and the imaging will be far superior because the headphones of the Momentum line have pretty mediocre imaging. Separation between elements of the mix should be much better and the overall sound just, well... far superior.

However, there will be some tradeoffs. An open-back headphone like the HD560s doesn't isolate at all from outside noise, and leaks sound, so it is completely impractical for portable use. And of course, it can only be used wired, with no wireless functionality, let-alone anything like noise-cancellation like the Momentum 3 has.

I looked up the specifications, and as long as iBasso is being truthful about them, the DC04 should be more than capable of driving the HD560s. However, keep in mind that the HD560s has a very long (10ft) cable that is as a result quite heavy, and ends in a 6.3mm connector, so you'll have to use the 6.3mm-to-3.5mm adapter that comes with it to use it with the DC04. This wouldn't be an issue except for the fact that I worry about how securely the USB Type-C connector on the DC04 will stay lodged into your source device's port when the big, heavy HD560s cable is hanging from it. Of course, this may not be an issue, and if it is, the issue would be easily solved if you got any of the short cables for the other HD5__ series headphones, like the HD599 cable, which are compatible with the locking mechanism for the HD560s cable (not just any random headphone-cable will work with the HD560s).

Also, what are you using to EQ the Momentum 3? If you use Windows, I'd recommend using Equalizer APO with the Peace GUI plug-in, and either these settings or instead these settings (the second link also has settings for a standard 10 band Graphic EQ if you're using a device with that instead, but if possible a Parametric EQ like the one available in Equalizer APO is recommended) if you want a Harman-neutral sound; many audiophiles think the Harman curve still has too much bass, but it'll still be quite a bit less bassy than the non-EQ'd sound of the Momentum 3 while still maintaining a slightly boosted level of bass that you'll enjoy.

 

[PhazeCrive]

.

 

[PhazeCrive]

Thanks for the detailed response! Basically that's what I wanted to hear--that it's vastly superior. From what I can tell, the M3 bass isn't all that extended. It definitely does not go as deep at the MTW2's ear-pulsing 4 hz bass. M3 does hit 20 but it for sure cuts off below. I'm not too worried about that since I ordered the new Subpac X1, which should reveal everything your headphones wont.

2 years of bloated, boomy bass, I can't wait to hear something that's really clean. Although I might actually miss that physical rumble on the outside of my ears whenever an explosion hits. For sure won't miss the reverberation from the midrange thanks to a closed back design full of tech inside.

I don't use them as bluetooth or portable. They're my desktop headphone, connected using their internal dac which is major step up from my computer's dac. My EQ preset looks like this, and even then I can still feel the bass rattling the earcups:

 

[goodyfresh]

Thanks for the detailed response! Basically that's what I wanted to hear--that it's vastly superior. From what I can tell, the M3 bass isn't all that extended. It definitely does not go as deep at the MTW2's ear-pulsing 4 hz bass. M3 does hit 20 but it for sure cuts off below. I'm not too worried about that since I ordered the new Subpac X1, which should reveal everything your headphones wont.

2 years of bloated, boomy bass, I can't wait to hear something that's really clean. Although I might actually miss that physical rumble on the outside of my ears whenever an explosion hits. For sure won't miss the reverberation from the midrange thanks to a closed back design full of tech inside.

I don't use them as bluetooth or portable. They're my desktop headphone, connected using their internal dac which is major step up from my computer's dac. My EQ preset looks like this, and even then I can still feel the bass rattling the earcups:

Sorry about another very, very long wall-of-text post, but there's A LOT to process and address here:

Hearing the bass rumble/shake the headphones is normal for closed-backs, and one of the tradeoffs with getting mid-fi open-back dynamic driver headphones like the HD560s. It's a result of them forming a complete seal over the ears. However, there's a difference between rumbling/shaking (which is a good thing) and rattle, which is an actual sound-quality issue, and I wonder if what you're experiencing is the former or latter; it may depend on what volume you're listening at.

I saw you mention extension down to 4Hz; Please don't be fooled by frequency-response claims of bass below 20Hz, or of treble above 20Khz (or if you're older than your early 20s, probably anything above 16 to 18Khz is irrelevant). Such claims are marketing gimmicks targeted at consumers who don't know about the range of human hearing. Our hearing doesn't go any lower than 20Hz; the reason you'll still hear/feel something if you play a bass-tone at say, 10Hz, is because of DISTORTION in the bass, which is practically unavoidable. It's not physically possible for the human ear to perceive sound at 10Hz; however, with distortion you can end up hearing the harmonics at 20Hz, 30Hz, 40Hz, etc. Distortion almost always rises at the very lowest frequencies, and that's why a 10Hz or even 5Hz tone might SEEM "audible," although this can become less of an issue with planardynamics, electrostats, or expensive hi-fi dynamic headphones with extremely low distortion down into the deepest bass. Bass-extension below 20Hz doesn't matter unless you're an elephant or a whale (lol), and treble above 20Khz doesn't matter unless you're a dog or a bat, haha. The HD560s have very good extension for open-back headphones; basically everything down to 40 or 35Hz is ruler-flat (but if we're talking about the Harman Curve which has bass above what most audiophiles consider "neutral," the roll-off actually starts at more like 90Hz, but is gradual), and the extension above 10Khz is very good (although stuff in a higher price-tier will often have MORE "upper octave air").

If using headphones with a PC, then I still recommend looking into getting Equalizer APO (with the Peace EQ GUI for ease of use). You can easily research it online, and it's 100% free! It gives MUCH more control over the frequency-response than the three-band equalizer you're using, and as I showed in my last post, you can find pre-sets to achieve Harman-neutrality (you'll probably like stuff that follows the Harman Curve given that you still like significant bass but don't want it bloated/bloomy). It should work far better to fine-tune your Momentum 3's than what you're using. Moreover, Equalizer APO with Peace GUI is AMAZING with the HD560s: The only significant deviations from neutrality in the HD560s are a few dB treble-peak at 5Khz, and the sub-bass roll-off due to being open-back. However, with Equalizer APO I'm able to use a preset (I prefer the one from the AutoEq website based on Oratory's measurements, but YMMV, there are a few presets available) that eliminates the treble-peak and boosts the bass below 50Hz (the boost rising at 20Hz). The treble-peak, while not BAD like the treble on Beyers or AKG's (or Grados, OUCH) can make things sound a TAD bit harsh/unnatural (for example, rain can sound a bit more like sleet than like rain), but with Equalizer APO, everything sounds incredibly natural with the HD560s. Also don't take that "rain sounds a bit like sleet" statement the wrong way; the HD560s are still basically the most neutral-tuned headphones in existence under $350 or $400, haha.

I'd personally be wary of products like the Subpac that seem like gimmicks and don't publish very detailed technical specs. But that may just be bias and audiophile-snobbery on my part, heh. But one thing to consider is that the built-in headphone-amp on the Subpac might not have enough voltage to properly drive the HD560s with their 120ohm impedance (higher impedance means voltage is what matters). It only outputs 1.0 Vrms into a 32ohm load, as opposed to the iBasso DC04 you mentioned which can do 4.0 Vrms; while the Subpac MAY drive the HD560s decently loud, I doubt it can drive them in a clean/proper way that won't create issues like possibly messing up the frequency-response, crackle/pops, etc. I'm finding reports on forums that it indeed has such issues with higher-impedance headphones. What people on those forums say is that they get a DAC that supports a split output, using one output into a dedicated amp for their headphones, and another output into the Subpac; or they get a DAC/Amp combo unit that has both a proper (non-volume-adjusted, so my K5 Pro won't work) line-out and a headphone-out that run simultaneously, and run the headphone-out to the headphones and the line-out to the Subpac. That would greatly increase your budget,, but would probably prove necessary in order to make the HD560s sound good with the Subpac.

 

[MayaTlab]

Quick question : has anyone tried to replace the original cable with this one from Sennheiser ? https://en-us.sennheiser.com/accessories-cable-ptt-12-m-dia-3-mm
Any problem to report if you have ?