[eskamobob1]

It's a current-mode amp IIRC

Current mode and current drive are different. Stari is current model (amplification happens in the current domain) but almost all current mode amps are rectified to voltage drive output. Things like the hpa01/01m/21 all have current drive outputs that remain unrectified as well as their rectified outputs. This is what I am asking about

 

[eskamobob1]

That would be my guess to. Relays click, but they shouldn't pop or crack. If that's heard, I'd ask the manufacturer to inspect the product, just to make sure. Hope this helps, thanks!

The cracking is extremely normal in relay atentuation without a mute relay. If you want to know if it's normal just email soo in, headlamp, or basicaly anyone else that uses relay atentuation

 

[iFi audio]

The cracking is extremely normal in relay atentuation without a mute relay.

We'd have to have a conversation whether we're discussing the same thing. I'm talking about consistency. If there's audible pop/crack at only one or two steps across the entire volume range, something's off somewhere, which I believe is a different situation than audible pops on every step due to a design that has that embedded.

Current mode and current drive are different. Stari is current model (amplification happens in the current domain) but almost all current mode amps are rectified to voltage drive output. Things like the hpa01/01m/21 all have current drive outputs that remain unrectified as well as their rectified outputs. This is what I am asking about

Beats me, you know more than I do about these products

 

[Mike Hughes]

Manufacturer allegedly says the firmware is fine. Not adding up for me. The assertion is that this is a V2 model with a V Shaped sound signature that crackles when the attenuator is used; that doesn’t really get on well with any DACs and didn’t sound musical or have a mid range. It seems extraordinarily far from the product we’ve seen reviewed up to now.

 

[Zielarz]

I checked it right now. You have clicks that you hear from the amp. Also there are pops that you hears in headphones with every step. The difference is that they are very quiet at low and high settings and more pronounced closer to 12 o’clock. Also I heard the same thing in V1 that I tested in the shop (old remote, no legs, different speakers caps).

It seems extraordinarily far from the product we’ve seen reviewed up to now.

Interesting, right? It shouldn’t be shocking that reviewers don’t say the whole truth especially when the product is so young and expensive. I was a reviewer in different industry and I think that audio is even more prone to this type of practices. Still there were some people who weren’t impressed with the Enleum. You can say that they have a different taste (which might be true) but also they might point to some problems with the device.

Next thing is (and I know that some people don’t want to believe in this) our faulty hearing. I’m not writing about problems with ears rather the problem with ‘decoder’ of the sound signal - our brain. It’s very sensitive to persuasions on which the marketing works. Sorry but the feets of Enleum aren’t magical nor they were designed in special way. This brings me to the fact that audiophile equipment producers like this type of things. People are buying this marketing talk. And the price is going up (that technology is pricey, right?).

As much as I love my May I know that you can get very close to it for less then $300. Yes it won’t look fancy, it won’t have all the connections but sound wise it’s very close or even more musical. My colleague is and engineer and he makes his own audio equipment usually from off the shelf parts that you can buy. He made this R2R DAC in simple and cheap wooden box for experimentation. I was impressed. It showed me that many if not most devices are overengineered and overpriced. But someone is making a living from it so it is what it is.

That depends on how you use it. On this forum it's judged as a headphone amp only and expensive at that, but its core utility is being a headphone and integrated amp for sensitive speakers, so people who intend to use the Enelum as such will see its value way differently. It's all realtive

The biggest advantage of 23R is his size when we take to consideration it’s dual purpose. But does this means it needs to be this expensive? Also for this price you can have great headphone amp and speakers amp (even with more power). In my country (Enleum is more expensive here, taxes and stronger dollar) additionally I could even buy a great speakers.

In the end I’m not writing that 23R is bad. I’m trying only to show a bit more then only positive side (which it also has).

 

[alekc]

I checked it right now. You have clicks that you hear from the amp. Also there are pops that you hears in headphones with every step. The difference is that they are very quiet at low and high settings and more pronounced closer to 12 o’clock. Also I heard the same thing in V1 that I tested in the shop (old remote, no legs, different speakers caps).



Interesting, right? It shouldn’t be shocking that reviewers don’t say the whole truth especially when the product is so young and expensive. I was a reviewer in different industry and I think that audio is even more prone to this type of practices. Still there were some people who weren’t impressed with the Enleum. You can say that they have a different taste (which might be true) but also they might point to some problems with the device.

Next thing is (and I know that some people don’t want to believe in this) our faulty hearing. I’m not writing about problems with ears rather the problem with ‘decoder’ of the sound signal - our brain. It’s very sensitive to persuasions on which the marketing works. Sorry but the feets of Enleum aren’t magical nor they were designed in special way. This brings me to the fact that audiophile equipment producers like this type of things. People are buying this marketing talk. And the price is going up (that technology is pricey, right?).

As much as I love my May I know that you can get very close to it for less then $300. Yes it won’t look fancy, it won’t have all the connections but sound wise it’s very close or even more musical. My colleague is and engineer and he makes his own audio equipment usually from off the shelf parts that you can buy. He made this R2R DAC in simple and cheap wooden box for experimentation. I was impressed. It showed me that many if not most devices are overengineered and overpriced. But someone is making a living from it so it is what it is.



The biggest advantage of 23R is his size when we take to consideration it’s dual purpose. But does this means it needs to be this expensive? Also for this price you can have great headphone amp and speakers amp (even with more power). In my country (Enleum is more expensive here, taxes and stronger dollar) additionally I could even buy a great speakers.

In the end I’m not writing that 23R is bad. I’m trying only to show a bit more then only positive side (which it also has).

@Zielarz thank you for all your findings. I'm so happy I went into a completely different direction with amp skipping 23r. Just like you: I'm not saying it is a bad product, but comparing it to some both solid state and tube amps it is simply overpriced IMHO with some serious flaws you just confirmed like few other owners did in the past.

Overall it tell us a lot about most of those "pro" audio reviewers: one can not simply trust them. This is something that should be discussed more openly and they should be openly criticised both for the profit of customers (us!) and manufactures of good products. Instead we have a stream of reviews that try to outdo all previous ones in more fancy wording about sound missing all the important information.

 

[alekc]

I think you can find in this topic some criticism of 23R. Also I think there aren't still many reviews, they selected to who they want to send this. Also for me it was interesting that many people who had the Enelum sold it quite quickly. Maybe I'm wrong but I think that if you buy a great gear (and this is what reviewers tell you) you don't want to sell it.

Still I think it comes to what you like in the music. If you love midrage and you like more warmer sound then Enleum probably won't be for you. As I wrote a few times - it makes music lifeless for me on my setup at least. You have Envy so it's closer to my Cayin HA-300 - I love this amp and I think overal it's a better (and not this expensive) device then 23R. Enleum is a bit more resolving and has more punch in the mid bass (at least with stock tubes at Cayin) but I think it needs a specific DAC to try to fix it. But if you have Abyss 1266 TC then this can be better then Envy - for me Enleum and 1266 match better also for my colleague who at least tested 23R and Envy. Also probably Susvara will be great form the Enleum.

Also I think it's important if you are a headphone user only or you are also using speakers. If so then Enleum has here some advantages but I'm not sure if the better option isn't buying separate headphone and speaker amps in the price of 23R.

I really think that 23R is overpriced and has too much marketing in it (those mythical legs without a rubber at bottom...). It's good, looks great, now has a fantastic remote but it also has a problematic (at least for some) midrange and it's pot can cause an issues (like when you try to decrease sound volume it sometimes go up first and after like one second it goes down).

I would've sold mine after more then two months but I bought it for my work so selling it isn't so easy because of taxes.

@Zielarz I'm not Envy owner yet, but this is the best reference amp for me at the moment that I have heard. THX based amps were to lifeless for me. Thank you for comparison of Enleum with HA-300. Quite interesting reading

 

[iFi audio]

But does this means it needs to be this expensive?

Apparently yes, but it should be said that a product's retail doesn't just cover the sum of its all parts. Before making any profit manufacturers have to first cover crew payments, monthly upkeep costs, taxes, distributor cuts and many other things customers aren't even aware of. On top of that manufacturing costs alone skyrocketed in recent two years due to many factors beyond anyone's control.

Also for this price you can have great headphone amp and speakers amp (even with more power).

That Enleum amp is for folks who don't want a standalone speaker and headphone amp, but something far smaller that's also ideal for their sensitive speakers and internally based on a rather intricate and unique circuit. That's the appeal of this product and power has nothing to do with it really.

comparing it to some both solid state and tube amps it is simply overpriced IMHO

This will heavily depend on the context and one's reference point. One journalist who has a very expensive setup bluntly said in his Enleum review that this amp with sensitive speakers actually sounded noticeably better than his $50k monos and preamp. In this context Enleum turns out to be a major bargain, doesn't it ?

 

[Zielarz]

@alekc You're welcome .

Yes, it's original price was still too much but at least it was more in line with the likes of Niimbus. Now some people can argue that price of materials and the components went up and the supply problems, etc. Sure but the same problems applies to everyone and I don't see every producer doing the same and with this amount. I know that they can have different suppliers but they don't need to stick to the one that is more expensive. Like Abyss - they upped their prices by a lot. The same time Audeze launched LCD-5. It was more expensive then the Fours but not this much (people expected much more). In the end I've seen them in the shop for the price of LCD-4 while 1266 are in Susvara territory now. All three are in my opinion on the same shelf but two of them are like $1,5k more. And still I think that Audeze is overpriced too (but I love them).

You should trust your ears. Not reviewers or not even me. Still you should be also very cautious about what you think that you hear. As I said the weakest part of human hearing system is our brain. That's why it's better not to read to much about stuff (like cables) before you test them and compare. If you do then while you'll be testing your brain can tell you that there is a change (becasue you read about it). I know that not everyone want to belive in this and are very protective about their hearing capabilities but we are only humans. This is what marketing psychology is using against us.

Also I like what John Darko said in one of his reviews - his job as a reviewer is to describe small changes in the sound as much bigger.

The problem is in the industry as a whole. The manufacturers are responsible for that, so does the distributors and the shops, the reviewers and in the end consumers too. It's hard to make it stop becasue every consumer needs to have a proper knowlage. Even then it's hard becasue there are so many myths and legends in audio world that people belive in and won't change their minds only becasue someone says so. The industry is defending itself becasue this is the way for earning money. Even when you show them facts they still belive more in marketing words. People are even ready to say that the designer of the product is wrong (like with Rob Watts and Qutest power supply).

I don't remember who said that but when you develop a product you're not making it because there is a demand for it - you are making the demand. Thats why you are creating a niche for you. Like Abyss 1266 - sure it can be run over by a Jeep but what for? I have really old headphones that still work and are fine (and were cheap). My other headphones are also fine after years of using. It's overdesigned for the sake of sales and marketing (the most durable headphones in the world!). There aren't other headphones like them. Still their design has a flaw becasue of the use of o-rings (so the Jeep won't destroy them but simple physics will).

Enleum has it's feets and try to convince people that you need them for better sound. Not at all. They probably will give you better air flow but their main focus is the design - it makes 23R looking diferent (even so it's a very simple design). Then you have a Red Dot award for the design. Cool but did anyone ever look at how those awards looks, who are the winners? There are a lot of them each year and the products varies from cars to... drillers. Also you need to submit your product to them first and pay for it (not much but still). Then when you win you also need to pay for it. But hey, you can then write in product description that you won the award.

Apparently yes, but it should be said that a product's retail doesn't just cover the sum of its all parts. Before making any profit manufacturers have to first cover crew payments, monthly upkeep costs, taxes, distributor cuts and many other things customers aren't even aware of. On top of that manufacturing costs alone skyrocketed in recent two years due to many factors beyond anyone's control.

You can't say "yes" if you can't see the acctual cost of it. You assume that it's correct and give a manufacturer a benefit of the doubt. This is a huge difference. And yes, there are more costs into it. Even then, when we calculated how much it would've cost us to make this simple DAC into something in the line with the May it was less then half of the price. And the May is considered to be cheaper because of the direct sales model. Also we didn't calculated the lower prices for batch orders of the components... And for the rise of the cost - I wrote in this post earlier that it effects everyone but you don't see them all doing it like this. Also do you think that if the prices went down they would lower the prices of the products?

That Enleum amp is for folks who don't want a standalone speaker and headphone amp, but something far smaller that's also ideal for their sensitive speakers and internally based on a rather intricate and unique circuit. That's the appeal of this product and power has nothing to do with it really.

Yes, this is how marketing of the products positions it. I thought that too. But this to work properly you need to have it on the desk with the speakers and headphones. Other way is that you have a long headphone cable or you take your chair close to your stereo setup. Also you need to unplug the speakers for headphones use and the other way around for stereo. Omission in the design (like the rubber feet for the legs) or marketing didn't thought that through? Also it cost a lot as for such a narrow usage.

This will heavily depend on the context and one's reference point. One journalist who has a very expensive setup bluntly said in his Enleum review that this amp with sensitive speakers actually sounded noticeably better than his $50k monos and preamp. In this context Enleum turns out to be a major bargain, doesn't it ?

Cool, so the Ferrari is a cheap car then... Nope, I would say he has even more overpriced equipment.

As I wrote - the industry has a long way to go if people want changes. But I don't think they want them in the first place (at least not all of them).

 

[iFi audio]

You can't say "yes"

Enleum said 'yes' by pricing the product the way they did. I was merely pointing that out. Whether one's okay with that price being accurately calculated or not is a different story

You assume that it's correct and give a manufacturer a benefit of the doubt.

I don't assume anything here. I was just saying that a product's retail price covers multiple costs folks don't know about and each manufacturer determines the final sum to cover all that and make a profit, that's all.

Also do you think that if the prices went down they would lower the prices of the products?

Beats me, but every manufacturer has to adjust to expenses and raising prices as is. As customers we have a choice to either be okay with this or not and this subject goes way beyond just audio.

Other way is that you have a long headphone cable or you take your chair close to your stereo setup.

There's nothing wrong with that and many people with audio setups on racks use long headphone cables. Actually, that's how I use my stereo and headphone setup. What doesn't work for you may work for others

Cool, so the Ferrari is a cheap car then...

Even Ferrari seems affordable in comparison to 10x more expensive cars, it's all relative as I've said

I would say he has even more overpriced equipment.

Not being that person you can't possibly know, can you ? Again, stuff that strikes you as overpriced may be a bargain to someone else. Considering how subjective audio is in general, it's a good practice to not brand products you're not familiar with as overpriced

Omission in the design (like the rubber feet for the legs)

From what I can tell, the product comes with decouplers and some silicone pads for them, so what seems to be the issue?

--

Just to not end up in a spiral of quotations, I hear you and I understand what you mean, I really do. It's your right to see Enleum in the subjective context that relates only to you, but that context doesn't apply to everyone. Therefore, let's agree to disagree here and there

 

[Mike Hughes]

The idea that costs rise for everybody and therefore the price rise by one manufacturer, being bigger than that of others, must inherently be profiteering, is a tad simplistic. Each manufacturer uses different parts. Each will source them from different locations. The cost of shipping to one country could be vastly different to the cost of shipping the same thing to another country for political or other reasons.

Enleum were clearly uncomfortable with the price rise they felt was forced on them because they took the legs,which previously had to be paid for as a separate item, and decided to include them in all purchases and as part of the cost.

Also important here to remember that Enleum may have residual legal costs from their separation from Bakoon. It may even be that Bakoon can prevent them sourcing identical components from the same location as part of the deal which allowed the creation of Enleum. If a price feels wrong to you then don’t pay it. In itself though that doesn’t mean that any kind of con is being exercised.

 

[Arniesb]

The idea that costs rise for everybody and therefore the price rise by one manufacturer, being bigger than that of others, must inherently be profiteering, is a tad simplistic. Each manufacturer uses different parts. Each will source them from different locations. The cost of shipping to one country could be vastly different to the cost of shipping the same thing to another country for political or other reasons.

Enleum were clearly uncomfortable with the price rise they felt was forced on them because they took the legs,which previously had to be paid for as a separate item, and decided to include them in all purchases and as part of the cost.

Also important here to remember that Enleum may have residual legal costs from their separation from Bakoon. It may even be that Bakoon can prevent them sourcing identical components from the same location as part of the deal which allowed the creation of Enleum. If a price feels wrong to you then don’t pay it. In itself though that doesn’t mean that any kind of con is being exercised.

If judging by the parts it looks like most overpriced headamp i ever saw. Doesnt look like it should cost more than Ferrum Oor, Violectric v550 or Benchmark hpa4.

 

[vonBaron]

@Zielarz thank you for all your findings. I'm so happy I went into a completely different direction with amp skipping 23r. Just like you: I'm not saying it is a bad product, but comparing it to some both solid state and tube amps it is simply overpriced IMHO with some serious flaws you just confirmed like few other owners did in the past.

Overall it tell us a lot about most of those "pro" audio reviewers: one can not simply trust them. This is something that should be discussed more openly and they should be openly criticised both for the profit of customers (us!) and manufactures of good products. Instead we have a stream of reviews that try to outdo all previous ones in more fancy wording about sound missing all the important information.

I compare 23R to my Niimbus and i really think 23R is overpriced by far margin.

 

[paradoxper]

I compare 23R to my Niimbus and i really think 23R is overpriced by far margin.

You really need to hear how the CFA3 crushes Niimbus.

 

[Zielarz]

Fair enough and I agree.I wasn't supposed to reply because it goes as I expected. But I think the topic needs a closure from me.

Enleum said 'yes' by pricing the product the way they did. I was merely pointing that out. Whether one's okay with that price being accurately calculated or not is a different story

The market says if the price is right. In this regards you could say that it is becasue it is selling. Then again we don't know how much, it's not like with companies that are present on stock market where they need to be transparent in some ways at least. But the hi-fi audio in general is a differen type of market, more niche. This is the problem I belive - there are people who can afford to pay vey larege sum of money and they don't think about if it's a adequate price or not. That's why we have this much of expensive stuff and prices are getting higher and higer. And the marketing is not like - this product is only for rich clients becasue it's made out of gold or so. They say that it's sounds best becasue they want everyone to want one of these.

I don't assume anything here. I was just saying that a product's retail price covers multiple costs folks don't know about and each manufacturer determines the final sum to cover all that and make a profit, that's all.

Yes but if you don't know the cost of the device then you must believe that the product is priced accordingly. But you don't know if they add for example 50% to the price just becasue they can. It's a shame that there aren't analysts (like in some other industries) that estimate the real costs of the devices. I think it would've been an eye opener for some.

Beats me, but every manufacturer has to adjust to expenses and raising prices as is. As customers we have a choice to either be okay with this or not and this subject goes way beyond just audio.

Well if you believe that the manufacturer is rising prices because of the rising cost of the parts (and you think that they are honest when they say so) then when the prices go down you should expect that they'll lower the price of the product. Or maybe they aren't honest but just use something for excuse.

There's nothing wrong with that and many people with audio setups on racks use long headphone cables. Actually, that's how I use my stereo and headphone setup. What doesn't work for you may work for others

Fair enough and I agree.

Even Ferrari seems affordable in comparison to 10x more expensive cars, it's all relative as I've said

For me there is a problem in this statement. It's like marketing people saying "yes, it is expensive, but if you compare it to more expensive stuff it's not so much, so in the end it's not".

From what I can tell, the product comes with decouplers and some silicone pads for them, so what seems to be the issue?

Yes, a $6,25k device has a rubber waffles because the manufacturer didn't think about it. I maybe didin't had a lot of equipment, but everything - like Cayin HA-300, Holo May, Pathos Aurium and Converto, Topping D90, Bluesound Node 2i, Burson Soloist, Copland DAC 215 - have some sort of rubber feets under them. Even in the review from Convince Me Audio he gently pushes the device and it slides. You don't have to be a specialist in building audio equipment to know that. Even then you can fix it. At least for now (V3?) it's still the old way. And the issue with this fix is that it's not ergonomic (you need to aim it right when you move it )- and it breaks (only a bit but still) the design (which for them is so important that they submitted it to Red Dot).

Just to not end up in a spiral of quotations, I hear you and I understand what you mean, I really do. It's your right to see Enleum in the subjective context that relates only to you, but that context doesn't apply to everyone. Therefore, let's agree to disagree here and there

Yes I agree . This is my last post on this subject. If you want you can reply and I'll read it but I'll not write back. I'm not writing this to say that you are wrong in everything, maybe I'm to naive. For me it's also a problem that you are a representative of one of the manufacturers (I like iFi products and I have/had a few and I don't have a problem with the company) so you have a stake in this.

The idea that costs rise for everybody and therefore the price rise by one manufacturer, being bigger than that of others, must inherently be profiteering, is a tad simplistic. Each manufacturer uses different parts. Each will source them from different locations. The cost of shipping to one country could be vastly different to the cost of shipping the same thing to another country for political or other reasons.

Sure, but do you see that the products from one country can be more expensieve (or cheaper) then from another? I think that it's not what we see in general. Yes there are countries like China, but even from them you have an expensive products (Hifiman or Cayin). So it can have an impact but maybe not this much. I compered two USA companies (Audeze and Abyss) - I know, different states but I think you can do a comparison of them, especially on the competitive market. Also if the parts are too expensieve then you can try to find a different supplier. Yeah I know, it's easy to write this and harder to do. Or is it? Becasue you could say it's easier not to do this and just say to people that they need to pay more. Especially when you know that they'll do it in the end.

Enleum were clearly uncomfortable with the price rise they felt was forced on them because they took the legs,which previously had to be paid for as a separate item, and decided to include them in all purchases and as part of the cost.

Were they? I mean that those legs and the new remote (old remote was on par if not worse then one added to Topping devices - and they were ok with it) are added to the price of Enleum. I'd say that if you are forced to increase the price you should give people an option to buy it without the legs that cost extra $500. They did the oposite to justify the price increase. If I had a choice I would buy them (as I said it's mostly a design thing, so as much as I like it with them, I don't like it as much as $500. Also I noticed that new remote costs $450! Wow, so now the price increase is a reall bargain!

Also important here to remember that Enleum may have residual legal costs from their separation from Bakoon. It may even be that Bakoon can prevent them sourcing identical components from the same location as part of the deal which allowed the creation of Enleum. If a price feels wrong to you then don’t pay it. In itself though that doesn’t mean that any kind of con is being exercised.

You might be right but I'm not sure if the consumer should care about it in the first place. At least it doesn't work this way in every industry. You have a competition. But in audio everything is subjective...

For me it's also interesting that people who don't have or heard the Enleum 23R have a lot to say about it.

In the end, as I expected - most people will argue and defend the manufacturers. This is how it works in this industry. I'm writing it more for the people who may be considering buying it or think that they need it. Or they just starting their journey with audio. I was in the same spot and I'm sharing with you what I've learned. That's all.