[Zhanming057]

Yeah, I'm gonna call that out as simply not true with the Abyss Phi TC...plus as mentioned, you will run the risk of blowing out your drivers. I'm not a fan of tubes typically with orthos as they lack the ability to supply the higher currents that they need to sound their best. That said, the WA33 is one heck of an amp with these cans!

Which summit fi speaker amps have you heard with the TC's? I wouldn't knock what I'm not familiar with. I've heard a couple WA33e's, with and without the fully tricked out tubes, with various DAC's, on the Abyss Phi's.

None can even touch an ATM300 or the Nagra Classic INT, just to give two examples, in terms of driving the Phi's, period.

The thing is, there's no difference between a tube speaker amp and a tube headphone amp. The WA5 functions exactly identically to the ATM300 when it comes to operating the power tubes. The difference is that Airtight has been improving on their design for 40 years, and uses the absolute best components available to build price-no-object amps. Woo simply does not have access to a parts bin at that level of quality.

Finally, you simply can't blow an Abyss driver on a 300b/quad 2a3 design because the tubes are not capable of dumping out enough power to permanently damage the drivers. As a very general rule of thumb, it would take an amp capable of delivering 30-40w of power into 4 ohms to have a chance at getting 5w into 50 ohms, which the Abyss can handle very healthily. It's even better with the Susvara which can handle 10w into the drivers. High end speaker amps are also extensively protected at the output end as conventional dynamic speaker driver have much less headroom above listening volume than planar drivers. If you trust an amp to not blow out $15k high-sensitivity desktop speakers, you should also trust it to not blow out a pair of headphones rated in the same max wattage range.

I have tried the HE_6s with top flight speaker amps...and nothing really special compared to a great headphone amp. And those headphones were quite a bit harder to drive too! And many owners who used speaker amps ended up blowing their drivers as a result.

The HE6 is hard to drive. That doesn't mean that it's a great pair of headphones.

The highest end modern designs - the TC and Susvara - benefit more from better amps because they are better headphones, and are more resolving of the source's flaws. The HE6 isn't revelatory because you can drive an OG 1266 with an RP030 and it'll sound better than the HE6 on just about any amp. That's not the speaker amp's problem

 

[MacedonianHero]

I think I read of one person blowing up their headphone drivers in the HE-6 thread.

There was certainly more than just one.

 

[MacedonianHero]

Which summit fi speaker amps have you heard with the TC's? I wouldn't knock what I'm not familiar with. I've heard a couple WA33e's, with and without the fully tricked out tubes, with various DAC's, on the Abyss Phi's.

None can even touch an ATM300 or the Nagra Classic INT, just to give two examples, in terms of driving the Phi's, period.

The thing is, there's no difference between a tube speaker amp and a tube headphone amp. The WA5 functions exactly identically to the ATM300 when it comes to operating the power tubes. The difference is that Airtight has been improving on their design for 40 years, and uses the absolute best components available to build price-no-object amps. Woo simply does not have access to a parts bin at that level of quality.

Finally, you simply can't blow an Abyss driver on a 300b/quad 2a3 design because the tubes are not capable of dumping out enough power to permanently damage the drivers. As a very general rule of thumb, it would take an amp capable of delivering 30-40w of power into 4 ohms to have a chance at getting 5w into 50 ohms, which the Abyss can handle very healthily. It's even better with the Susvara which can handle 10w into the drivers. High end speaker amps are also extensively protected at the output end as conventional dynamic speaker driver have much less headroom above listening volume than planar drivers. If you trust an amp to not blow out $15k high-sensitivity desktop speakers, you should also trust it to not blow out a pair of headphones rated in the same max wattage range.



The HE6 is hard to drive. That doesn't mean that it's a great pair of headphones.

The highest end modern designs - the TC and Susvara - benefit more from better amps because they are better headphones, and are more resolving of the source's flaws. The HE6 isn't revelatory because you can drive an OG 1266 with an RP030 and it'll sound better than the HE6 on just about any amp. That's not the speaker amp's problem

Please look at my history here...this isn't my first rodeo. I've had the same discussion on the HE-6 thread. I've heard everything from Krell, to McIntosh, Pass Labs, Naim, Nagra, Mark Levinson, etc... Remember these are headphones and NOT speakers. The right tool for the right job. Remember P = V*I. There isn't much magic to play with that equation and that's why I'd recommend a more substantial investment in your source. A properly designed headphone amp is the best choice IMO and IME for these headphones. Plus a few folks have already blown out their Abyss drivers and many more on the HE_6 thread. So good luck with that (and a voided warranty).

 

[Zhanming057]

Please look at my history here...this isn't my first rodeo. I've had the same discussion on the HE-6 thread. I've heard everything from Krell, to McIntosh, Pass Labs, Naim, Nagra, Mark Levinson, etc... Remember these are headphones and NOT speakers. The right tool for the right job. Remember P = V*I. There isn't much magic to play with that equation and that's why I'd recommend a more substantial investment in your source. A properly designed headphone amp is the best choice IMO and IME for these headphones. Plus a few folks have already blown out their Abyss drivers and many more on the HE_6 thread. So good luck with that (and a voided warranty).

You've heard all of them on the Abyss Phi/CC/TC? I go to two channel stores, with my own desktop DAC, specifically for the purpose of testing the Abyss and other headphones I own. Please tell me which speaker amps have you tried with an Abyss can. I only comment on amp/headphone pairings that I have tried.

I would trust a 500w amp with good protection from Bryston much more readily than a 40w Wells Headtrip with its poor protective circuitry. If headphone amp makers used the same high quality components and designed their amps to be as robust as the best 2 channel players, we wouldn't be having this conversation. But they don't, and regardless of whether this is because of economies of scale, or because head-fi is a young field, or because too many makers get by with snake oil, but that is unfortunately the case. If you're happy with a Formula S or a WA5, that's fine, those are excellent amps. But if you want to truly experience the best there is to offer - cost, size, weight not being a part of the equation - then speaker amps are where it's at.

 

[MacedonianHero]

You've heard all of them on the Abyss Phi/CC/TC? I go to two channel stores, with my own desktop DAC, specifically for the purpose of testing the Abyss and other headphones I own. Please tell me which speaker amps have you tried with an Abyss can. I only comment on amp/headphone pairings that I have tried.

I would trust a 500w amp with good protection from Bryston much more readily than a 40w Wells Headtrip with its poor protective circuitry. If headphone amp makers used the same high quality components and designed their amps to be as robust as the best 2 channel players, we wouldn't be having this conversation. But they don't, and regardless of whether this is because of economies of scale, or because head-fi is a young field, or because too many makers get by with snake oil, but that is unfortunately the case. If you're happy with a Formula S or a WA5, that's fine, those are excellent amps. But if you want to truly experience the best there is to offer - cost, size, weight not being a part of the equation - then speaker amps are where it's at.

I think we’re talking past each other a bit. As I said, good luck with your speaker amps and your drivers (and voided warranty). Run the numbers on what is needed for these headphones...you are simply pushing too much power into them as some of the headphone amps you mentioned will blow out your eardrums. I’m not sure why you want more?

As well, look to your source, imo more important than your speaker amps.

 

[CreditingKarma]

While I have not heard the abyss on a speaker amp I have heard it with the wells headtrip reference. It sounded incredible with this set up being fed by a Dave. I have only heard the raal sr1a driven with a speaker amp. It was with the hegel h20 power amp fed by a Dave and mscaler. It was damn good. Then I heard it driven with a dagostino momentum integrated and it blew the hegel away as it should it is close to $45,000 vs #5k for the hegel. I am not sure how the abyss would sound driven by the dagostino but I am most likely not going to take a chance with blowing the drivers on mine.

Maybe some one is crazy enough to try driving it with the D'agostino relentless mono blocks.

 

[Zhanming057]

I think we’re talking past each other a bit. As I said, good luck with your speaker amps and your drivers (and voided warranty). Run the numbers on what is needed for these headphones...you are simply pushing too much power into them as some of the headphone amps you mentioned will blow out your eardrums. I’m not sure why you want more?

As well, look to your source, imo more important than your speaker amps.

You're dodging the question - if you have not tried the TC/CC with a true TOTL speaker amp and don't know how risky driving the TC is relative to, say, AL-05 compacts - then you cannot speak as to how good, or safe, the practice is. I test amps on the highest end DAC I can find at the moment - in stores near me, this means the Nagra Classic DAC. If I'm out of town I can usually source a Dave/Mscalar or an Alpha DAC Reference.

I've never blown a driver nor heard of anyone using good, high end speaker amps that blew a driver on any headphone. I would trust a 10w headphone amp with no protection much less than a 100w speaker amp with multiple layers of voltage protection. No amp is completely risk-free - component failures or a board short can fry any headphone on any amp hooked up to the wall. But building amps as if user error is a common problem - as speaker amp builders usually do - is a good thing. It's not a matter of power but a matter of component selection, build quality and design.

Just to reiterate, for those who might not be following the conversation. Specific to the Abyss Phi/Phi TC:

- Is there a risk of blowing up the headphones on a speaker amp? Yes, for very powerful amps. There is zero concern with running most 300b/2a3/EL84 based tube amps and most solid state amps with less than 50w of rated output into 4 ohms.

- What if you want to use an extremely powerful amp and is concerned about wattage? There are transformer-based adapter boxes that are less detrimental to sound quality than the Hifiman box. Don't use the Hifiman box if at all possible. If you have a good, modern speaker amp, the amp should go into protection long before it has a chance to blow up your headphones.

- Is it actually better? Go try it yourself! Bring your DAC and cans to an appointment with your 2 channel dealer. A cheap banana to XLR adapter costs less than $100.

 

[simorag]

- Is it actually better? Go try it yourself! Bring your DAC and cans to an appointment with your 2 channel dealer. A cheap banana to XLR adapter costs less than $100.

I have mine on order and that's just what I plan to do. Actually it is much easier where I live to audition high end speaker amps than headphones amplifiers

 

[Articnoise]

The quality of the amplifier always trumps if it’s a dedicated headphone or speaker amp IME. I will only speak for myself, but to me here in Sweden it’s easier, and much cheaper to get a good used speaker amp than to get the same SQ from a headphone amp, at least for harder to drive headphones.

 

[kelvinwsy]

This is a passive impedance matching transformer
Problem in the specs with Transformers is phase shift uneven through the frequency range!
The quality of a tube amp is in the output transformers!
So nothing wrong with using Vishay Wirewound resistors.. Just making some heat as output power is dissipated.

 

[kelvinwsy]

Passive imp matching tranny

 

[MacedonianHero]

You're dodging the question - if you have not tried the TC/CC with a true TOTL speaker amp and don't know how risky driving the TC is relative to, say, AL-05 compacts - then you cannot speak as to how good, or safe, the practice is. I test amps on the highest end DAC I can find at the moment - in stores near me, this means the Nagra Classic DAC. If I'm out of town I can usually source a Dave/Mscalar or an Alpha DAC Reference.

I've never blown a driver nor heard of anyone using good, high end speaker amps that blew a driver on any headphone. I would trust a 10w headphone amp with no protection much less than a 100w speaker amp with multiple layers of voltage protection. No amp is completely risk-free - component failures or a board short can fry any headphone on any amp hooked up to the wall. But building amps as if user error is a common problem - as speaker amp builders usually do - is a good thing. It's not a matter of power but a matter of component selection, build quality and design.

Just to reiterate, for those who might not be following the conversation. Specific to the Abyss Phi/Phi TC:

- Is there a risk of blowing up the headphones on a speaker amp? Yes, for very powerful amps. There is zero concern with running most 300b/2a3/EL84 based tube amps and most solid state amps with less than 50w of rated output into 4 ohms.

- What if you want to use an extremely powerful amp and is concerned about wattage? There are transformer-based adapter boxes that are less detrimental to sound quality than the Hifiman box. Don't use the Hifiman box if at all possible. If you have a good, modern speaker amp, the amp should go into protection long before it has a chance to blow up your headphones.

- Is it actually better? Go try it yourself! Bring your DAC and cans to an appointment with your 2 channel dealer. A cheap banana to XLR adapter costs less than $100.

I've tried the original version and the CC on a Pass Labs and McIntosh and nothing magical as these headphones aren't crazy to drive. I've tried the HE-6s on a Mark Levinson, but I ended up preferring a good DAC and a GS-X MK2, HPA4 or Formula S...not because they were better, but not any worse. And adding the risk of blowing out my drivers (which again has happened on more than a few occasions) was too much to justify for me.

Let's run some numbers shall we:

Based on the efficiency and impedance of the PHI TC headphones, you would need only 4.86 Volts (RMS) and 103 mA (RMS) and a grand total of 502mW to achieve 115 dB volume. Hardly requiring a 100W amp to get to these numbers.

 

[rumina]

my vote goes for speaker amps driving demanding magentoplanars. build myself a lot of amps and headphone amps and only my dynahi drives the two abyss and the susvara with nice authority. krell ksa5 with 5 watt is fine but not as good as 10watt + amps. no problem connect direct the headphone to the amp (beside tube amps) up to 25 watt, over that noise can be a problem and a voltage divider is a good idea.

beside that a lot of nice 10-25 watt class a amps exist that are well designed and matured over the last 20 years. you have here a lot more choices to finetune the sound you like. nelson is right when he says the first watt matters the most (or the frist 10% the amp is capable of deliver).

i use most of the time a pathos inpol remix (tube hybrid like the aic-10) or the dynahi beside having a lot of other (headphone-)amps.

 

[MacedonianHero]

my vote goes for speaker amps driving demanding magentoplanars. build myself a lot of amps and headphone amps and only my dynahi drives the two abyss and the susvara with nice authority. krell ksa5 with 5 watt is fine but not as good as 10watt + amps. no problem connect direct the headphone to the amp (beside tube amps) up to 25 watt, over that noise can be a problem and a voltage divider is a good idea.

beside that a lot of nice 10-25 watt class a amps exist that are well designed and matured over the last 20 years. you have here a lot more choices to finetune the sound you like. nelson is right when he says the first watt matters the most (or the frist 10% the amp is capable of deliver).

i use most of the time a pathos inpol remix (tube hybrid like the aic-10) or the dynahi beside having a lot of other (headphone-)amps.

I would classify the Susvara as a tough to drive, the Phi not as much by any margin. Plus, good luck with not overdriving them and blowing out your drivers. Please look at the numbers I provided...hardly daunting for a well designed headphone amp.

But hey, if that's what floats your boat...have it. But beware and protect them drivers and yer ears too.

 

[rumina]

but you know that the amp abyss recommend eleven audio xiaudio formula s has more then 10 watt into 4 ohm? they seem to be fine with that. you need not only look at the total watt output but also check the gain of a amp. no luck needed only math .