The importance of Components?
Mar 8, 2009 at 4:38 PM Post #31 of 121
Hehe incontrovertible. I think it's quite clear, not the least of which from this thread, and from the language in the above quote, that there's more emotional investment in this topic than there is knowledge.

Our of curiosity, the abstract of the Meyer/Moran paper mentions "electrostatic loudspeakers" - are they referring to headphones/earspeakers here? If not, the paper has little significance IMO, as it's my experience that difficult ABXs are only passable with particular kinds of headphones/earphones.
 
Mar 8, 2009 at 5:33 PM Post #32 of 121
Quote:

Originally Posted by b0dhi /img/forum/go_quote.gif
it's my experience that difficult ABXs are only passable with particular kinds of headphones/earphones.


That rather depends on your definition of difficult
wink.gif
. We know that you have exceptional hearing, being the *only* person on this forum to be able to *verifiably* distinguish 320K vs lossless in blind tests.

But if it takes exemplary headphones/speakers and first class ears to pass a CD/SACD test then for ~ 99% of people 16/44.1 is functionally transparent in normal use and the other (un)lucky 1% can worry at it as much as they like.

It does not make it impossible it just makes it unlikely in the vast majority of cases.
 
Mar 8, 2009 at 7:09 PM Post #33 of 121
Quote:

Originally Posted by nick_charles /img/forum/go_quote.gif
We know that you have exceptional hearing, being the *only* person on this forum to be able to *verifiably* distinguish 320K vs lossless in blind tests.



I disagree ! It all depends on the sample. I just checked. With Lame 3.97 beta 2, --preset insane (top quality 320 kbps CBR), decoded with Foobar2000 0.8.3 with dither. Sample checked for no clipping during decoding.
Sample : badvilbel, available here : Samples for Testing Audio Codecs (taken from the track "Second Bad Vilbel" of "Autechre", on the CD "Anvil Vapre").
Start playback at 9.4 seconds. Listening for the 2 first seconds. Loud listening level, though on this soft passage, the result is not loud.
ABX in ABC/HR 1.1 beta 2.

Result 16/16.
 
Mar 8, 2009 at 11:37 PM Post #34 of 121
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pio2001 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
That was the paper that I talked about.
But remember that a negative is never a proof.

It does not "proves beyond the shadow of a doubt", it just shows that it should be considerent transparent "for all practical purposes", practical purposes meaning here audiophile critical listening.

The tests were blind tests, meaning that in sighted conditions, one can hear differences, but that this listener would probably hear the same differences if the sources were actually the same.



Proper ABX testing is always scientific proof and all the proof I need, negative or not.
 
Mar 8, 2009 at 11:57 PM Post #36 of 121
Quote:

Originally Posted by milkweg /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Proper ABX testing is always scientific proof and all the proof I need, negative or not.


Nope, it is evidence (possibly good evidence) based on a sample and a set of specific conditions, to generalize beyond it is unwise, the answer is to replicate varying sample and conditions and eventually if all tests continue to consistently come up the same way you can talk about strong evidence.
 
Mar 9, 2009 at 4:23 AM Post #37 of 121
Quote:

Originally Posted by nick_charles /img/forum/go_quote.gif
That rather depends on your definition of difficult
wink.gif
. We know that you have exceptional hearing, being the *only* person on this forum to be able to *verifiably* distinguish 320K vs lossless in blind tests.

But if it takes exemplary headphones/speakers and first class ears to pass a CD/SACD test then for ~ 99% of people 16/44.1 is functionally transparent in normal use and the other (un)lucky 1% can worry at it as much as they like.

It does not make it impossible it just makes it unlikely in the vast majority of cases.



Thanks for those kind words, but I disagree about my hearing. It isn't at all exceptional, and that brings me to my point: -

I hope this doesn't come across as gloating in any way, I'm just trying to explain by example from my own experience: for the first hour or so the first time I did an ABX, I couldn't pass it. Now every couple of weeks I'll test again and consistently get results about 25/25 for roughly 200kbps samples. But what about that first hour where I couldn't pass? Did my ears magically become younger during that time? Ofcourse not. It's simply that I learnt to consciously perceive smaller differences than normal. But listening to music isn't really an activity where you're consciously straining to convert sound into emotion - it's an innate behaviour (for most), and one not very well understood either. That's not to say that there isn't a conscious awareness of the music, only that the component that actually causes changes in our emotional state is, for most people (I stress most, not all), largely subconscious.

So, the important thing is not what we can consciously detect when listening to music, but what any part of our brain, either above our threshold of awareness or below it, can detect and process behind the scenes.

So, in light of the former, a test trying to gauge the conscious awareness of differences in components is fine so long as it doesn't pretend that it's measuring hearing ability in total. The Meyer/Moran paper, and others like it, are valuable for what they say about conscious awareness of high/normal res audio using speakers. Some other people extrapolate that result to mean high res audio makes no difference whatsoever to anyone in any circumstance, and that's unjustified IMO (I'm looking at you, Audio Critic).

Also note that I'm not being fatalistic and saying that there's no way to know if it makes a difference - there are plenty of ways, but that simply is not it (there's more info about this in the ongoing thread about ABX testing).

So in my opinion it isn't necessarily the case that the "unlucky 1%" can't hear the differences that others can. It's just that they can't, at the present, consciously detect and compare them.

I would go so far as to say that our conscious hearing ability is geared against hearing these subtleties, because our day to day lives revolve around hearing and processing macroscopic sounds that have symbolic meaning to us. The vast majority of us do not at all have any reason to be constantly and consciously zooming into meaningless and microscropic - but real - nuances in sound. But it's possible to do so consciously if one trains themself, such as is the case with human echolocation. Generally blind people are a good example here because the loss of their sight forces them to use their hearing more, and so they get better at hearing.

Amps/cables vs Blind audiophiles able to use echolocation, and trained for extended aural memory - that I would be interested to see an ABX of
L3000.gif
 
Mar 9, 2009 at 5:52 AM Post #38 of 121
Source-Amp-cables 50%
Recording 50%

Or we could all just evaluate one piece of equipment (yes cables or anything else) at a time and see if it is worth having. This way no one has to be a backyard Poindexter and we can just base all of our decisions on what sounds good. I know that is so unreasonable of me but you guys know how I am.
 
Mar 9, 2009 at 12:23 PM Post #39 of 121
Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif
You were trying to make me think it's dithering which gave me the impression of «digital glare» -- a lame attempt to rebut my deductions. You may not know, but dithering is meant to make the opposite: get rid of digital artifacts.


If you've never heard dithering artefacts, how can you be sure? By the way, you don't seem to know much about dithering. It's not meant to "get rid of digital aretefacts", it's designed to convert a single digital artefact (quantisation error) into un-correlated noise. Again, I've been using dither professionally for nearly 20 years, from a relatively simple Triangular Density Function to the more modern 9th Order recirculating functions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif
So you have indeed discovered that hi-rez sounds better? Interesting. But there's no way to make you think it could be because of the transient corruption of the low-rez format due to the sharp anti-aliasing filter? Hhmm... I'm in the comfortable situation to have the opportunity for comparing low-rez to hi-rez any time. So you can indeed trust me.


I said that I knew the advantages/disadvantages pretty well and that I've been an advocate of hi-rez since before you even heard of it. I never said it sounds better!! Hi-rez is better for certain applications, when recording for example and for technical reasons to do with headroom and cumulative quantisation errors during summing. For playback, I do not believe hi-rez holds any benefits for the consumer except that possible (but unlikely) benefit I mentioned on the first page of this thread.

BTW, you can trust me more, as I have been critically comparing standard CD quality sound to hi-rez on professional equipment, in a professional monitoring environment for commercial products since '92.

G
 
Mar 9, 2009 at 12:46 PM Post #40 of 121
Quote:

Originally Posted by milkweg /img/forum/go_quote.gif
http://theaudiocritic.com/plog/

Proven: Good Old Redbook CD Sounds the Same as the Hi-Rez Formats
Incontrovertible double-blind listening tests prove that the original 16-bit/44.1-kHz CD standard yields exactly the same two-channel sound quality as the SACD and DVD-A technologies.
In the September 2007 issue of the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society (Volume 55, Number 9), two veteran audio journalists who aren’t professional engineers, E. Brad Meyer and David R. Moran, present a breakthrough paper that contradicts all previous inputs by the engineering community. They prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, with literally hundreds of double-blind listening tests at matched levels, conducted over a period of more than a year, that the two-channel analog output of a high-end SACD/DVD-A player undergoes no audible change when passed through a 16-bit/44.1-kHz A/D/A processor. That means there’s no audible difference between the original CD standard (“Red Book”) and 24-bit/192-kHz PCM or 1-bit/2.8442-MHz DSD.



It seems you can «prove» everything by means of DBT. We already had amps sounding the same, there was a link demonstrating that good speakers can't be identified in a blind comparison with a live band, and now this about audio formats... As if all A/D and D/A converters sound identical, hence are perfect...

I'm telling nothing new, but to some it may be new nonetheless: The main issue addressed by some audiophile CDP/DAC manufacturers (Theta, Wadia, Burmester, EMM Labs, Pioneer...) was and is the sharp low-pass filter at ~21 kHz needed for suppressing aliasing. This has nothing to do with missing ultrasonics, but with the fatal consequences for the audible range. Every filter -- every nonlinearity generally -- is harmful for transient response. The sharper and steeper, the worse. Now the classic anti-aliasing filter designated for the CD format has extreme sharp- and steepness (according to the established Nyquist concept it would ideally have even infinite sharp- and steepness). In this form it's called «reconstruction filter». Why? Below a graph with a schematic illustration of high-frequency sine waves stored on a CD -- before low-pass filtering.

sinuskurven.jpg


What can be seen here is a distinct beat (amplitude modulation). It's an inevitable product of the interference between sampling frequency and signal frequency. And it shows the compromise that has been made in the high frequency range in order to get away with a relatively low sampling rate (remember the state of technology when the CD was invented!).

Here's another source addressing this issue.

«No problem!» is the tenor of the Nyquist apologists. Because there's the classic «reconstruction filter» designed exactly for this purpose. Indeed: After being smoothed with the classic implementation of the anti-aliasing filter, the curves have turned into immaculate sine waves. But what's actually happened? Well, the sharp filter implicates a resonance showing up in square-wave and pulse response.

fifteen2.gif
fifteen.gif
. .
attachment.php


(Some don't like the term «resonance» in the context of electronics, but the discrimination is academic. Although the filter resonance is a consequence of a purely mathematical function -- the Gibbs phenomenon --, in contrast to stored kinetic energy in the case of sound transducers, the result is exactly the same.) This resonance completely smoothes out the amplitude modulation. So far so good. But now imagine a scenario with an original signal catched by the microphone exactly corresponding to the amplitude-modulated sine wave above (and below). Again the «reconstruction filter» makes a continuous sine wave out of it. Correspondingly it makes the same -- smoothing and «(time-)smearing» -- with every other form of transients in an existing signal.

Without a classic «reconstruction filter» (but a smoother slope instead) the response looks like this:

attachment.php


The measured high-frequency drop-off is the result of the amplitude modulation. Both phenomena -- HF drop-off and amplitude modulation -- show up in every Wadia player. Filterless DACs behave exactly the same, as they also renounce any form of FR reconstruction and AM smoothing.

To sum it up: «Reconstruction» in the term «reconstruction filter» merely addresses frequency response and completely ignores the time axis, thus impulse response. Nevertheless, some people still consider the transient corruption that comes with it inaudible -- for some reason --, a common reasoning is that the human hearing is relatively insensitive to transients, in contrast to frequency response issues. IMO this approach is quite arbitrary. A relative insensitivity -- even if it's true -- is still not the same as absolute insensitivity.

My Corda Symphony, more precisely its audiophile on-board DAC, allows for different filter settings:

symphonyfront820.jpg


The audible impact is subtle, but quite clear nonetheless once you're familiar with the over-all characteristic of this device. My favorite filters are number 2 and 3 below (with 8x oversampling):

attachment.php


Note the identical frequency response! -- Switching between the two means deciding between relatively dry, accurate overtones and opulent overtone brilliance combined with a slightly more organic characteristic. That said, the fact that there's a sonic difference at all also means that the ringing is perfectly audible -- despite the prevalent belief that it is not among technocratic circles.

There was another experience that convinced me of the harmfulness of redbook CD's high-frequency cut-off. -- Maybe you know what a Meier-Audio «Analoguer» is. To those who don't: it's a low-pass filter circuit meant to make up for the digital glare with CDs, implying about the same 3.5-dB drop-off at 20 kHz as in the above graph.

With CDs, it provided a nice, smoother alternative to the standard sound, neither better nor worse. With SACDs, though, it killed all of the format's superiority, consisting of higher detail and definition as well as enhanced airiness.

So as far as I'm concerned, when it comes to sound quality, the verdict about redbook CD and hi-rez is quite clear. That's why I gave «Higher sampling frequency» a score of 33 after all.


 
Mar 9, 2009 at 12:51 PM Post #41 of 121
For the people who require some kind of scientific evidence to prove that something (mainly cables) does affect sound quality I have the following statement. Prove that is doesnt before you start blabbering on about how impossible it is.
 
Mar 9, 2009 at 12:58 PM Post #42 of 121
Quote:

Originally Posted by gregorio /img/forum/go_quote.gif
If you've never heard dithering artefacts, how can you be sure? By the way, you don't seem to know much about dithering. It's not meant to "get rid of digital aretefacts", it's designed to convert a single digital artefact (quantisation error) into un-correlated noise. Again, I've been using dither professionally for nearly 20 years, from a relatively simple Triangular Density Function to the more modern 9th Order recirculating functions.

BTW, you can trust me more, as I have been critically comparing standard CD quality sound to hi-rez on professional equipment, in a professional monitoring environment for commercial products since '92.



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Mar 9, 2009 at 3:19 PM Post #43 of 121
Thanks for taking the time to explain all that, JaZZ. Intriguing stuff.
 
Mar 9, 2009 at 5:30 PM Post #44 of 121
I've done volume matched tests and come to the conclusion that all decently engineered sources, amps, DAC, or whatever else (apart from transducers) sound the same. And by decently engineered I'm setting the baseline at something like Denon, not Rotel or Arcam.

Let's take music out of the equation because that is single most important factor. I'd rather listen to music I like on cheap earbuds than music I dislike on a Mcintosh system.

Speakers/Headphones - 89%
My mood - 10%
All other equipment - 1%

Quote:

It seems you can «prove» everything by means of DBT. We already had amps sounding the same, there was a link demonstrating that good speakers can't be identified in a blind comparison with a live band, and now this about audio formats... As if all A/D and D/A converters sound identical, hence are perfect...


Oh Head-Fi it's the opposite. You can "prove" anything simply by providing a highly subjective review or opinion.

If nothing else, it would be nice of people did volume matched comparisons between equipment.
 
Mar 9, 2009 at 6:03 PM Post #45 of 121
Quote:

Originally Posted by odigg /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I've done volume matched tests and come to the conclusion that all decently engineered sources, amps, DAC, or whatever else (apart from transducers) sound the same. ... Oh Head-Fi it's the opposite. You can "prove" anything simply by providing a highly subjective review or opinion. If nothing else, it would be nice of people did volume matched comparisons between equipment.


A review is never a proof. Moreover, we should avoid the error of projecting our own hearing (abilities) to others. Personally I can live with the idea that some people can discern LAME CBR 320 from lossless, whereas I can't (maybe I could learn it).

BTW, what do you think the filter selectors on the Symphony are for?
.
 

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