[Morph201]

X2.. Speaking from the angle of someone who has heard the HD800s. I made the 'mistake' of going after the preorder only to lose out on a very good speaker deal! At this point I'm willing to sit tight with what I have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sennheiser probably did their market research before the economy crapped. Luxury goods are down, way down, across the board. I'd be surprised if HD-800 orders are meeting their projections. No matter the margins, Sennheiser made a huge mistake by pricing the HD-800 well into speaker territory. As close as I came to buying the HD-800, I decided instead to buy a pair of used Quad ESL-63s. The Quads cost less. And I'm 100% satisfied with the Quads. They sound wonderful. I'm sure the HD-800 sounds great, too, but I'm going to stick with my speakers. No headphone can, or ever will, throw up a dipolar soundstage. If anyone has a problem with the HD-800 price, just go put your money into quality used speakers. Odds are the speakers will outperform them.

 

[auris]

Quote:

The other problem is that the sinking economy is going to push down on used gear. If you've been laid off and need to keep a roof over your head and food in the cupboard, unloading audio gear is a good option. The subprime storm has mostly passed, but option ARMs and Alt-A loans are set to meltdown shortly. There should be a flood of audio and other collectibles and hobby gear on the market.

x2.
Additionally, the commercial real estate market is about to fall off a cliff. There will be empty strip centers coming to a neighborhood near you soon. The "unofficial" unemployment rate is already around sixteen percent. Wait until it hits twenty-five or so. Used high-end audio gear prices will probably plummet to levels that are hard to imagine.

While there are those around here who would rather have the newest gear than food on their table, for most of the world it works the other way around.

 

[cbk9811]

Think of all the over priced things we consume everyday. Simple things like coffee and bottled water, diamonds, sunglasses, "art" etc... I am not saying they worth it or not. Its up to the consumer, and he/she will decide that for themselves. $1.5k headphones are only a waste if you don't enjoy them or don't use them. If you do and it brings a smile to your face. Then its worth what ever you pay for it.

I wonder if all those waiters and waitresses who were "making" 14k per month and applied for home loans and received home loans based on "Stated loans". That more than a few mortgage companies pushed through are really to blame for this situation??

 

[vai-777]

Quote:

Originally Posted by auris /img/forum/go_quote.gif x2. Additionally, the commercial real estate market is about to fall off a cliff. There will be empty strip centers coming to a neighborhood near you soon. The "unofficial" unemployment rate is already around sixteen percent. Wait until it hits twenty-five or so. Used high-end audio gear prices will probably plummet to levels that are hard to imagine. While there are those around here who would rather have the newest gear than food on their table, for most of the world it works the other way around.

Last time I checked the "great depression 2" was off the table......I have followed this "economy" for quite some time and frankly it has been driven down far too much by short selling on wall street and media propoganda.....everyone loves bad news..... negativity sells....thats the bottom line.

In a way we are getting what we deserve but lets not get crazy with 25% unemployment predictions.....

 

[Beagle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbd2884 /img/forum/go_quote.gif How much do you all think it costs Sennheiser to manufacture the HD800?

50 bucks, tops.

But if some people are willing to pay $1400, why not price it accordingly? They could charge $2500 for the HD800 and they would get it because fanatics have to have them. Whatever the headphone market will support. The more people pay, the better it sounds and the better it is. It HAS to sound good because it's $1400 bucks! If the HD800 cost $100, audiophiles would think it was a piece of crap because they would be of the belief that at $100 it could not possibly sound state of the art. It's all relative.

Bottom line is that if it's the sound you want (or the hype insists you do) and you have to have it, you'll have to pay for it. And Sennheiser knows this. They know we're here, in large numbers. If Head-Fi doesn't exist, the list price is $795.

 

[odigg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beagle /img/forum/go_quote.gif Bottom line is that if it's the sound you want (or the hype insists you do) and you have to have it, you'll have to pay for it.

I grinned at this statement. It's seems to be a common habit of people to say a headphone has a sound you have to get used to then use all sorts of arguments (neutral, musical, toe-tapping, blah blah) to justify getting used to it.

Yet, as human beings, we have the incredible capacity to get used to just about anything and even end up liking it (isn't that why people eat Soy burgers?). We really can adapt to a lot.

The HD800 seems like a prime candidate for this. Some people will listen to it for a day and not like it or think it's just alright. Then they'll think "but it's $1400" and keep listening to it. 100 hours later, viola, the headphone is transformed into the greatest headphone ever made.

You never hear about people listening to their $25 cans until they get to the point where they love the sound signature so much the $1K can sounds like rubbish in comparison. Who wants to get used to a $25 headphone?

 

[boomana]

Head-fi is important for launches and getting the word out, but only in part. It's a drop in the bucket when it comes to sales. Sennheiser is going to be marketing to a wider audiophile and professional market.

If people don't want to pay $1400 for the HD800, they can wait a few months or maybe a couple years. If it sounds good today, that sound won't change. People always pay premium for a launch. Why bother with the wonder of what it costs to make, if Sennheiser is charging too much, if the retailers are getting too much of a cut, or anything of the kind. Everybody is right that it doesn't need to be as expensive as it is, but that won't change a thing. It is what it is. I think of the other headphones that have come out recently at a similar pricepoint (GS1000, Edition 9s) and I don't like them at all. If this headphone comes close to the reports of those I trust and who have heard it, it will be worth it to me.

 

[Uncle Erik]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbk9811 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Think of all the over priced things we consume everyday. Simple things like coffee and bottled water, diamonds, sunglasses, "art" etc... I am not saying they worth it or not. Its up to the consumer, and he/she will decide that for themselves. $1.5k headphones are only a waste if you don't enjoy them or don't use them. If you do and it brings a smile to your face. Then its worth what ever you pay for it. I wonder if all those waiters and waitresses who were "making" 14k per month and applied for home loans and received home loans based on "Stated loans". That more than a few mortgage companies pushed through are really to blame for this situation??

The problem is substitute goods. Marketing only gets you so far. You can have a terrific product and have a large audience that wants it, yet still fall short. As much as I'd love a well made large yacht, it ain't happening for me in the forseeable future.

The trouble for the HD-800 is that there are less expensive substitute goods. You can get a great deal of musical pleasure for less. The years of easy money are over, and audiophiles tend to be educated and resourceful. Less expensive choices will become attractive.

Sure, Sennheiser is going to sell some units. But will they sell enough to justify keeping the HD-800 in production? There's overhead to keep the workers there, the lights on and everything else. Even with an enormous markup, will they sell enough to keep it going?

We're not off the economic rollercoaster, either. It won't end until property values reset. The easiesb way to judge that is if the mortgage payment would cover the rent on the property. By that measure, much is still overpriced. And there are still weird things going on in the market. Last year, I tried to buy a rental unit that had been on the market for 11-12 months. I offered the asking price, had 20% down and prequalified for a 15 year fixed.

And they wouldn't take it. They hemmed and hawed for almost three weeks and backed out. Weird. Even stranger, it got pulled from the market and has sat unlisted and unused for several months. I have an agent keeping an eye on it, but I still can't make sense of what's going on.

There's a massive amount of unsold properties out there. Those are the subprime leftovers... probably being held back to prop up prices. But who is paying the property taxes and upkeep? And what's going to happen when commercial property unwinds as well as the higher end of housing that hasn't bottomed yet? Everything didn't bottom out in six months back in 1929. It took three or four years before the bottom.

 

[kool bubba ice]

Seems like the HD800 has no future.

 

[zotjen]

Quote:

And they wouldn't take it. They hemmed and hawed for almost three weeks and backed out. Weird. Even stranger, it got pulled from the market and has sat unlisted and unused for several months. I have an agent keeping an eye on it, but I still can't make sense of what's going on.

OT and just a thought. When the seller finally had a buyer, he or she realized how much less they were getting than what they paid for it and decided to back out.

 

[catscratch]

I wouldn't be surprised if Sennheiser loses money on every HD800 they sell, even at current prices. You have to factor R&D costs into it, though the same R&D then trickles down into less expensive mass-market models that are your cash cows.

IIRC the Orpheus sold at $11k initially then at $16k, and even at these prices Sennheiser lost money on every Orpheus sold. I don't know about the HE60.

 

[sonq]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif No matter the margins, Sennheiser made a huge mistake by pricing the HD-800 well into speaker territory. As close as I came to buying the HD-800, I decided instead to buy a pair of used Quad ESL-63s. The Quads cost less. And I'm 100% satisfied with the Quads. They sound wonderful. I'm sure the HD-800 sounds great, too, but I'm going to stick with my speakers. No headphone can, or ever will, throw up a dipolar soundstage. If anyone has a problem with the HD-800 price, just go put your money into quality used speakers. Odds are the speakers will outperform them.

I don't think a speaker is a substitute for many. Some of us are seeking great headphone as alternative for speakers.

I already have a satisfying speakers system, just that by the time I get home, it's impossible to play anything beyond polite chamber music without disturbing people all around me.

I really hope the HD800 or PS1000 will finally help to end my search.

 

[mbd2884]

Quote:

Originally Posted by catscratch /img/forum/go_quote.gif I wouldn't be surprised if Sennheiser loses money on every HD800 they sell, even at current prices. You have to factor R&D costs into it, though the same R&D then trickles down into less expensive mass-market models that are your cash cows. IIRC the Orpheus sold at $11k initially then at $16k, and even at these prices Sennheiser lost money on every Orpheus sold. I don't know about the HE60.

I wouldn't be surprised for Audio Technica that their best selling and most profitable headphone right now is the AD700. Even if it's only selling at $150 and less, just the large quantities. And for Grado, wouldn't be surprised if the SR60 and SR80 are the two headphones that provide much of their headphone profits.

And that's my point. At the $1,400 pricing, they won't sell that many. And with such low sales, each sale will still be a loss. In order to start making a profit, I think they need to boost sales.

There just aren't that many people willing to spend even more than $50 for headphones. And then how many willing spend $100? I just don't see how selling $1,400 will ever cover the cost of headphones if they beyond the budget of the vast majority of headphone users and even more so, well beyond what they are willing to spend?

So yeah maybe they may only make $600 from each user, but selling a few hundred thousand of them or more at that price is better than a few thousand, if that at $1,400. And for Sennheiser, I'd be excited that so many headphones are priced above $1000. If they price the HD800 for far less, and affordable, and their new drivers prove to be vastly superior. Well that just makes the HD800 that much more attractive and enticing for the Headphone community.

Just look at the AKG K1000s. They are considered to be legendary at Head-Fi and look at how difficult it was for AKG to sell them? Did they ever make a profit, I'm not certain, but impression is it was a huge failure.

Well I look forward to the HD800 reviews, it's nice to have something to look forward to in the future, when maybe $1,400 for headphones isn't a jaw dropping thought.

 

[mbd2884]

Also guessing a bit here.

My impression is that the majority of Headphone buyers are younger people. Sure it's the older crowd who have the expendable cash to buy the GS1000, DX1000 and so on. But doesn't seem there are that many of them to me. Especially recently here at Head-Fi a lot seem to be undergrad, graduate or just out of college students, tons of high school kids.

And makes sense to me, once I buy a house with a mortgage, family, saving for retirement, college fund and so on, headphones would be last on my list to worry about.

Next also, seems to me one of the biggest reasons headphones here at Head-Fi are purchased because of convenience. Living in dormitories and apartments, where loud speakers isn't very accommodating. Cause if you had a house, then speaker system makes more sense, and just get a modest headphone setup for when you need the isolation or consideration for family when they need quiet time.

So all in all, doesn't it make more sense for Sennheiser to price their headphone for the largest constituent who buy their products?

But then I concede, I may be totally wrong and that the majority of headphone buyers are older and willing to spend $1,4000 ensuring the HD800 is a huge profit success.

 

[roadtonowhere08]

For the price Sennheiser is asking, they better be MUCH better than the HD650. It is a large jump in price from the HD650 to the HD800. Let's face it, the MSRP is a huge gamble every time in a flagship product (especially in a small niche market such as this). With the way they have bungled the preorder and pre-launch hype, they better be everything people have hoped for and more...