[Praegrandis]

First of all, I would like to extend my warm greetings to all of the members of this forum. It is nice to become a member of this awesome, no-nonsense community. This is my first post where I would like to kindly ask for help and advice from the experienced and knowledgeable enthusiast members of the forum.

I consider myself an experienced enthusiast PC user. However, I am definitely a newbie when it comes to all things audio.

I am planning an extreme PC rig for gaming and movie watching. I am not going to use it for music listening. I will be using and switching between both speakers and headphones and I want to have surround sound for both as I like to feel immersed in the content I am watching and games I am playing. However, I don't play any competitive games so I don't care about positioning my enemies etc. I just want a high quality, rich, immersive audio with a lot of bass for explotions and such. I also don't want to use a PCIe sound card as it would interfere with my case airflow and it would be difficult to plan around it when choosing my future PC components. Only external solutions are considered.

My PC audio setup up to this point consisted of a motherboard Realtek solution, Logitech Z506 5.1 surround sound speaker system and Logitech G933 7.1 surround sound wireless headset. I have been happy with these parts so far as they have been doing what I needed them to do and fit for my use case. However, I realise that those are the choices for the clueless and would like to add a proper audio setup to my build this time in order to enhance the audio experience considerably.

Money is not an issue, there is no budget. However, I would like my parts to be relatively easy to setup and use. I probably don't need top level professional hardware to be happy with my audio. That said, I am prepared to learn and evolve in this area.

Which headphones and speakers do I choose from? What combination of DAC, AMP and/or receiver (do I need all of them?) will be appropriate to drive those?

Before making those choices I will also have to consider which surround sound solution is the best for my use case: hardware or software? Maybe both? If software, which one?

Thank you very much in advance for your help.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

I am planning an extreme PC rig for gaming and movie watching. I am not going to use it for music listening. I will be using and switching between both speakers and headphones and I want to have surround sound for both as I like to feel immersed in the content I am watching and games I am playing. However, I don't play any competitive games so I don't care about positioning my enemies etc. I just want a high quality, rich, immersive audio with a lot of bass for explotions and such. I also don't want to use a PCIe sound card as it would interfere with my case airflow and it would be difficult to plan around it when choosing my future PC components. Only external solutions are considered.

Sound Blaster X7 but check if the drivers are getting more constant fixes for Win 10.

Money is not an issue, there is no budget. However, I would like my parts to be relatively easy to setup and use. I probably don't need top level professional hardware to be happy with my audio. That said, I am prepared to learn and evolve in this area.

X7 is about the best you can get other than the Asus Xonar counterparts, and it has a 2ch speaker amplifier to boot, but then some people complained about software bugs.

Which headphones and speakers do I choose from? What combination of DAC, AMP and/or receiver (do I need all of them?) will be appropriate to drive those?

You'll only need the receiver if you're planning on using passive surround speakers like Focal's and Dynaudio's non-pro monitors, Duevell, Sonus Faber, etc. Otherwise you can hook powered surround speakers to the soundcard or motherboard. These don't need special processing anyway and depends more on how large your room is, and unless you're playing with wireless peripherals on a huge screen, can make positioning larger surround speakers a bigger problem: they'll take up more space that makes mounting them (especially the center adn sub) more problematic and you can easily knock over the surrounds (or bump your head on them if wall mounted), if the rear speakers are too far you're going to be more reliant on the receiver having time correction DSP, etc.

You can use a DAC and HPamp (they can be separate or built into the same chassis) but that depends on how you want to get surround sound. If you can use software DSP like those that Creative licenses to Gigabyte and ASRock, or an Asus with Xonar/MSI with Nahimic software, or the games you play have built in virtual surround (usually just labelled "Headphone" in the sound options), chances are you can just use USB, but a safer bet is to use the optical output from the motherboard. If you'll use an external soundcard to get a dedicated DSP chip to run that software instead of having the motherboard doing it (with all the cores in today's mainstream processors I wouldn't really worry about it, just get more RAM or don't use those features that use the RAM to accelerate app start ups) then you can hook up the DAC-HPamp to it via optical, in which case you can get something cheap like the Xonar U3.

Where any of this will be a problem really is your need to easily switch between headphoones and speakers. If you have speakers on the motherboard and you have a DAC-HPamp on the optical output of the board or USB, or a USB to a mini external soundcard sending a signal to the DAC-HPamp via SPDIF optical, you'll need to go into Windows Properties to select the output path. If you have all the speakers and headphones running off a soundcard that processes virtual surround and drives the headphones/sends a digital signal to the DAC-HPamp driving headphones and has all the speakers connected to it, it's an easier interface on the soundcard software that you can leave running on the desktop and just minimize. It's not really that much more difficult nor time consuming to go into Windows Properties but that might be a concern for you.

Before making those choices I will also have to consider which surround sound solution is the best for my use case: hardware or software? Maybe both? If software, which one?

Depends on you really. I tried Razer Surround before and I can't even tell if it's actually working outside of the helicopter sound test on the Razer app, and I don't think it works on media players playing movies either. I'm sure it was enabled on the games, I just can't tell the difference.

I'm using a Xonar U3 and if I set the room size to medium it creates a big enough space for some sense of directionality without making Center channel voices (like on comms in-game or Steam chat with a human). And yes I only use it for immersion, not for competitive gaming. As much as it's great hearing the trampling hooves farther from my camera locked above the General's unit (or just hovering pre-Rome II), the Large room setting just makes "your men are running away! a shamefur disprray!" unnaturally far considering for example I'm supposed to hear it from Honda Masanobu standing beside me than from Honda Tadakatsu getting surrounded behind enemy lines.

And no, technically using "both" is a given as long as you use a full soundcard, since you'd have a dedicated DSP. chip..which then has to run software.

 

[JamesCanada]

I have a few things,
Honestly, for movies and gaming all you need is 1 thing.
Audeze Mobius. : https://www.audeze.com/products/mobius-series/mobius-headphone

These cans are a do it all, fantastic purchase for your needs.
On top of it all they can be used Bluetooth.
I'm all for Dac and amps and the whole shabang....
But when it comes down to movies and Gaming, the ONLY pair I use are my mobius.

If you absolutly want a amp-Dac in your PC and you have the room for it, a Burson play would be my ideal piece of gear : https://www.bursonaudio.com/products/play/

 

[PaganDL]

Hi @Praegrandis,

First of all welcome, that is among the most enthusiastic greetings I have seen here in a long time.

As someone who was in the PC enthusiast area for a long time & still is to a certain degree, nor do I play PC games much for various reasons, I hope I can help a fellow PC enthusiast add audio knowledge to their skillset.

If you're only after external sound card devices, etc, I would suggest something like an audio interface, some which come to mind are as follows :
Lexicon Alpha
Focusrite Scarlett Series
RME Babyface Pro
RME ADI 2 DAC

These would serve your needs nicely & give you good options to consider for surround sound style capability & expansion to begin with.

Surround sound tends to be an overrated ideal in most cases which is really all about positioning & as @ProtegeManiac stated, it all depends on what you want to achieve not just sound wise but what kind of setup, be it with software, hardware or both.

Personally, I use a surround style setup myself, combining both passive & active speakers & while the passive side could be a bit more streamlined, it certainly works more than well enough for me & I certainly don't use software to tweak any of this.
Technically, the way I have set things, I could also have surround in a two speaker config as well, more on that later.
Since your preference is for games & movies, it is important to remember whatever option you decide, unless said content has surround capability encoded in then a surround setup won't necessarily work as intended.
Sure there are ways around this but that is a discussion for another day...

The following is my setup to give you an idea of soley hardware surround setup.

Source :
Lexicon Alpha
Output 1 - Drawmer MC 2.1 (Montior Controller)
Output 2 - Sunfire SDS 8 (Dedicated Sub & pricey footrest)
Headphone Output - All Head Amps are connected via splitter for ease of connection unless Balanced Connection is required then refer to Monitor Controller

Primary Amp :
Drawmer MC 2.1
Manages all audio output via XLR from Lexicon Alpha (Source) unless otherwise stated.
Output A - For Balanced Head Amp connections
Or
Fostex 846 (Front facing Third Level Speaker relative to sitting position but not facing me, currently rarely used as physical 5th & 6th audio channel & more used to hold down desk as pricey paperweight)

Output B - Genelec 8010 (Rear Facing Primary Speaker, positioned on either side relative to sitting position but not facing me)

Output C - Presonus HP4 Monitor Pass Through Output to Marantz 5005 (Passive Amp) for PMC DB 1 Gold (Secondary Side Facing Speaker for Ambient Room Fill but not facing me)

Drawmer MC 2.1 or any Monitor Controller has control options for either Master Mute or Output Channel Mute if only Head Out is required.

While some idiots may complain about how I set this up, this works for me with current room & budget limitations, there are certainly many other options of course which I would be happy to go into if necessary.

As always, @ProtegeManiac has put forward some good points...

Hope this all makes sense, feel free to ask questions...

Hope you have a great day !

 

[PurpleAngel]

First of all, I would like to extend my warm greetings to all of the members of this forum. It is nice to become a member of this awesome, no-nonsense community. This is my first post where I would like to kindly ask for help and advice from the experienced and knowledgeable enthusiast members of the forum.
I consider myself an experienced enthusiast PC user. However, I am definitely a newbie when it comes to all things audio.
I am planning an extreme PC rig for gaming and movie watching. I am not going to use it for music listening. I will be using and switching between both speakers and headphones and I want to have surround sound for both as I like to feel immersed in the content I am watching and games I am playing. However, I don't play any competitive games Only external solutions are considered.
My PC audio setup up to this point consisted of a motherboard Realtek solution, Logitech Z506 5.1 surround sound speaker system and Logitech G933 7.1 surround sound wireless headset. . Which headphones and speakers do I choose from? What combination of DAC, AMP and/or receiver (do I need all of them?) will be appropriate to drive those?
Before making those choices I will also have to consider which surround sound solution is the best for my use case: hardware or software? Maybe both? If software, which one?
Thank you very much in advance for your help.

My two cents,
Dump the Z506 5.1 and replace it with a 2.1 setup, using studio monitors (self-powered speakers) and a matching sub-woofer.
About $700+ for a JBL 2.1
Get the Audio-GD NFB-11.28 external DAC/amp, $400.
Check out the Beyerdynamic T90 headphones.

If you really wanted a good 5.1 speaker (with A/V receiver) setup, for $1500-$2000 I'm sure you could find something you would like.

 

[Praegrandis]

Sound Blaster X7 but check if the drivers are getting more constant fixes for Win 10.




X7 is about the best you can get other than the Asus Xonar counterparts, and it has a 2ch speaker amplifier to boot, but then some people complained about software bugs.




You'll only need the receiver if you're planning on using passive surround speakers like Focal's and Dynaudio's non-pro monitors, Duevell, Sonus Faber, etc. Otherwise you can hook powered surround speakers to the soundcard or motherboard. These don't need special processing anyway and depends more on how large your room is, and unless you're playing with wireless peripherals on a huge screen, can make positioning larger surround speakers a bigger problem: they'll take up more space that makes mounting them (especially the center adn sub) more problematic and you can easily knock over the surrounds (or bump your head on them if wall mounted), if the rear speakers are too far you're going to be more reliant on the receiver having time correction DSP, etc.

You can use a DAC and HPamp (they can be separate or built into the same chassis) but that depends on how you want to get surround sound. If you can use software DSP like those that Creative licenses to Gigabyte and ASRock, or an Asus with Xonar/MSI with Nahimic software, or the games you play have built in virtual surround (usually just labelled "Headphone" in the sound options), chances are you can just use USB, but a safer bet is to use the optical output from the motherboard. If you'll use an external soundcard to get a dedicated DSP chip to run that software instead of having the motherboard doing it (with all the cores in today's mainstream processors I wouldn't really worry about it, just get more RAM or don't use those features that use the RAM to accelerate app start ups) then you can hook up the DAC-HPamp to it via optical, in which case you can get something cheap like the Xonar U3.

Where any of this will be a problem really is your need to easily switch between headphoones and speakers. If you have speakers on the motherboard and you have a DAC-HPamp on the optical output of the board or USB, or a USB to a mini external soundcard sending a signal to the DAC-HPamp via SPDIF optical, you'll need to go into Windows Properties to select the output path. If you have all the speakers and headphones running off a soundcard that processes virtual surround and drives the headphones/sends a digital signal to the DAC-HPamp driving headphones and has all the speakers connected to it, it's an easier interface on the soundcard software that you can leave running on the desktop and just minimize. It's not really that much more difficult nor time consuming to go into Windows Properties but that might be a concern for you.




Depends on you really. I tried Razer Surround before and I can't even tell if it's actually working outside of the helicopter sound test on the Razer app, and I don't think it works on media players playing movies either. I'm sure it was enabled on the games, I just can't tell the difference.

I'm using a Xonar U3 and if I set the room size to medium it creates a big enough space for some sense of directionality without making Center channel voices (like on comms in-game or Steam chat with a human). And yes I only use it for immersion, not for competitive gaming. As much as it's great hearing the trampling hooves farther from my camera locked above the General's unit (or just hovering pre-Rome II), the Large room setting just makes "your men are running away! a shamefur disprray!" unnaturally far considering for example I'm supposed to hear it from Honda Masanobu standing beside me than from Honda Tadakatsu getting surrounded behind enemy lines.

And no, technically using "both" is a given as long as you use a full soundcard, since you'd have a dedicated DSP. chip..which then has to run software.

Thank you very much for your reply.

It looks like X7 is a nice DAC/AMP combo for my needs. However, in this thread (https://www.head-fi.org/threads/zxr-vs-x7.759657/) someone has the following to say about it: "The other strike is the fact the X7 can't decode DTS, much less DTS-HD Master Audio. The only movie sound codec the X7 can decode is standard Dolby Digital. Even if you are only going to use stereo speakers this still is a huge strike because you won't be able to play Blu-Rays that are without a Dolby Digital track. You also lose out on the higher resolution audio of DTS-HD MA/Dolby TrueHD which you would still benefit from in stereo." Does that mean that my surround audio experience will be severely limited when using X7? Is it the hardware of the software side of the X7 that is limiting? Is there a way around that?

Also, I have decided that I would like to avoid motherboard audio completely. What do I do in this case?

I can position my speakers in a way that would be optimal as I am moving to a new apartment. The entertainment room area will be about 35 sq.m. I don't play using wireless periferals, I play at my pc desk. However, I have a 65 inch TV just above my main monitor. When watching movies, I will mostly be using a couch located in the center of the room and speakers for audio. I don't think I want something ultra high end like those passive speaker options. Maybe something like Logitech Z906 or something a little better would be a decent enough step up from my previous speakers. What do you say?

I don't mind having to go into Windows Properties to select the output path. Using soundcard software is fine as well.

 

[Praegrandis]

I have a few things,
Honestly, for movies and gaming all you need is 1 thing.
Audeze Mobius. : https://www.audeze.com/products/mobius-series/mobius-headphone

These cans are a do it all, fantastic purchase for your needs.
On top of it all they can be used Bluetooth.
I'm all for Dac and amps and the whole shabang....
But when it comes down to movies and Gaming, the ONLY pair I use are my mobius.

If you absolutly want a amp-Dac in your PC and you have the room for it, a Burson play would be my ideal piece of gear : https://www.bursonaudio.com/products/play/

Thank you for your contribution. I will definitely consider those headphones.

 

[Praegrandis]

Hi @Praegrandis,
Surround sound tends to be an overrated ideal in most cases which is really all about positioning & as @ProtegeManiac stated, it all depends on what you want to achieve not just sound wise but what kind of setup, be it with software, hardware or both.

Personally, I use a surround style setup myself, combining both passive & active speakers & while the passive side could be a bit more streamlined, it certainly works more than well enough for me & I certainly don't use software to tweak any of this.
Technically, the way I have set things, I could also have surround in a two speaker config as well, more on that later.
Since your preference is for games & movies, it is important to remember whatever option you decide, unless said content has surround capability encoded in then a surround setup won't necessarily work as intended.
Sure there are ways around this but that is a discussion for another day...

Thank you very much for your extensive contribution!

I just want to have a setup that will work in most cases when playing games (I mosty play modern AAA titles) and watching blu-rays. I don't want to have to tweak software a lot. Will the external soundcards you have listed allow me to do so?

 

[Praegrandis]

My two cents,
Dump the Z506 5.1 and replace it with a 2.1 setup, using studio monitors (self-powered speakers) and a matching sub-woofer.
About $700+ for a JBL 2.1
Get the Audio-GD NFB-11.28 external DAC/amp, $400.

Check out the Beyerdynamic T90 headphones.

If you really wanted a good 5.1 speaker (with A/V receiver) setup, for $1500-$2000 I'm sure you could find something you would like.

Thank you for your reply. I will look at those headphones. I guess I reserve the purchase of a $1500-$2000 5.1 setup for the future when I am more experienced/knowledgeable about the subject.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

It looks like X7 is a nice DAC/AMP combo for my needs. However, in this thread (https://www.head-fi.org/threads/zxr-vs-x7.759657/) someone has the following to say about it: "The other strike is the fact the X7 can't decode DTS, much less DTS-HD Master Audio. The only movie sound codec the X7 can decode is standard Dolby Digital. Even if you are only going to use stereo speakers this still is a huge strike because you won't be able to play Blu-Rays that are without a Dolby Digital track. You also lose out on the higher resolution audio of DTS-HD MA/Dolby TrueHD which you would still benefit from in stereo." Does that mean that my surround audio experience will be severely limited when using X7? Is it the hardware of the software side of the X7 that is limiting? Is there a way around that?

If you prefer DTS or have discs that don't have Dolby, then yes, that's important, and so far the X7 doesn't have a fix for it.

Safest bet by the looks of it is what you don't want to do, which is to get a real HT receiver with passive speakers and run HDMI audio to it.

Also, I have decided that I would like to avoid motherboard audio completely. What do I do in this case?

Not much...external soundcards tend to be focused on driving headphones (to varying effecitveness depending on their price). For the price of an Asus Xonar external unit that has no problem with DTS you'd probably end up within spitting distance of an entry level HT receiver with a decent enough speaker set and a DAC-HPamp that you can run with Razer Surround.

I can position my speakers in a way that would be optimal as I am moving to a new apartment. The entertainment room area will be about 35 sq.m. I don't play using wireless periferals, I play at my pc desk. However, I have a 65 inch TV just above my main monitor. When watching movies, I will mostly be using a couch located in the center of the room and speakers for audio. I don't think I want something ultra high end like those passive speaker options. Maybe something like Logitech Z906 or something a little better would be a decent enough step up from my previous speakers. What do you say?

I don't mind having to go into Windows Properties to select the output path. Using soundcard software is fine as well.

It will be but you have to compare prices and specs. If the high end external Xonars can work with DTS then add the price of that to those passive speakers, then compare that to a DAC-HPamp (running Razer Surround) to a decent entry level Onkyo with some decent speaker set like those from Polk or Ascend Acoustics.

If you don't have a problem with using the motherboard and going into audio properties the easiest fix really is to just hook up those speakers to the motherboard, since even if it has no DSP to do virtual surround, as long as it runs DTS then you'd be able to run the multimedia speaker set.

And overall I'd focus more on mounting the speakers equidistant to where your head will be than upgrading your current speakers, since the motherboard likely won't have time delay DSP.

 

[Praegrandis]

If you prefer DTS or have discs that don't have Dolby, then yes, that's important, and so far the X7 doesn't have a fix for it.

Safest bet by the looks of it is what you don't want to do, which is to get a real HT receiver with passive speakers and run HDMI audio to it.




Not much...external soundcards tend to be focused on driving headphones (to varying effecitveness depending on their price). For the price of an Asus Xonar external unit that has no problem with DTS you'd probably end up within spitting distance of an entry level HT receiver with a decent enough speaker set and a DAC-HPamp that you can run with Razer Surround.






It will be but you have to compare prices and specs. If the high end external Xonars can work with DTS then add the price of that to those passive speakers, then compare that to a DAC-HPamp (running Razer Surround) to a decent entry level Onkyo with some decent speaker set like those from Polk or Ascend Acoustics.

If you don't have a problem with using the motherboard and going into audio properties the easiest fix really is to just hook up those speakers to the motherboard, since even if it has no DSP to do virtual surround, as long as it runs DTS then you'd be able to run the multimedia speaker set.

And overall I'd focus more on mounting the speakers equidistant to where your head will be than upgrading your current speakers, since the motherboard likely won't have time delay DSP.

So if I understood correctly a good solution would be to use something like Asus Xonar U7 for my headphones (supports all kinds of surround and DTS in case I need it when using headphones).

For my speaker setup I should get a DAC-HPamp, HT receiver with speakers and run HDMI audio to it. Surround can be acvieved via software means, e.g. Razer Surrond. Am I still confused?

Again, I would like to avoid motherboard audio and to really step up to something better.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

So if I understood correctly a good solution would be to use something like Asus Xonar U7 for my headphones (supports all kinds of surround and DTS in case I need it when using headphones).

For my speaker setup I should get a DAC-HPamp, HT receiver with speakers and run HDMI audio to it. Surround can be acvieved via software means, e.g. Razer Surrond. Am I still confused?

Again, I would like to avoid motherboard audio and to really step up to something better.

No, something like the U7 will be for everything since if it runs DTS no problems. It will drive your headphones, it has surround output for your multimedia speakers. You can use a DAC-HPamp with its digital output if you want to, depending on the headphone's power requirement or if you want higher output with lower distortion and noise, or running Class A so you don't have crossover distortion.

For just the speakers you don't need the DAC-HPamp. You only need the DAC-HPamp there if you go with passive speakers that require the HT receiver, and then you use the DAC-HPamp if
1. You're using low impedance or low impedance, low sensitivity headphones; or if you use a high impedance headphone and even that can't get loud enough nor loud but clean
2.The HT receiver's DSP can't run virtual surround and you don't want to go through Windows menus switching between surround output, Razer Surround off and stereo output, Razer Surround On

 

[Praegrandis]

No, something like the U7 will be for everything since if it runs DTS no problems. It will drive your headphones, it has surround output for your multimedia speakers. You can use a DAC-HPamp with its digital output if you want to, depending on the headphone's power requirement or if you want higher output with lower distortion and noise, or running Class A so you don't have crossover distortion.

For just the speakers you don't need the DAC-HPamp. You only need the DAC-HPamp there if you go with passive speakers that require the HT receiver, and then you use the DAC-HPamp if
1. You're using low impedance or low impedance, low sensitivity headphones; or if you use a high impedance headphone and even that can't get loud enough nor loud but clean
2.The HT receiver's DSP can't run virtual surround and you don't want to go through Windows menus switching between surround output, Razer Surround off and stereo output, Razer Surround On

Guess I should thank you for your help and patience

So would you say that a U7 is enough to power something like Audeze Mobius and Logitech Z906 at the same time? If not which DAC-HPamp for headphones should I run via the U7's digital output?

 

[PurpleAngel]

For playing Blu-ray disks from a Windows PC, you want to use a software program like Cyberlinks PowerDVD, which comes which does all the Dolby or DTS processing.

The Z906 is self-powered speakers, so the Creative X7 would not "power" the Z906.
Using the Z906, connected by S/PDIF (optical/coaxial) will limit 5.1 audio to 24-bit/48k, so even if the Blu-ray movie disk comes with 24-bit/192k audio, you will only get 24-bit/48k sound, thru the Z906.

 

[Praegrandis]

For playing Blu-ray disks from a Windows PC, you want to use a software program like Cyberlinks PowerDVD, which comes which does all the Dolby or DTS processing.

The Z906 is self-powered speakers, so the Creative X7 would not "power" the Z906.
Using the Z906, connected by S/PDIF (optical/coaxial) will limit 5.1 audio to 24-bit/48k, so even if the Blu-ray movie disk comes with 24-bit/192k audio, you will only get 24-bit/48k sound, thru the Z906.

Can I use Cyberlinks PowerDVD with something that already comes with it's own sofware, like the X7?

I misspoke, I meant to say drive instead of power. I also was speaking about the headphones not the speakers. Can Xonar U7 drive something like Audeze Mobius by itself, or does it need an additional HP amp?