The Ethernet cables, Switches and Network related sound thread. Share your listening experience only.

[TRHH]

In your system my idea would be combining your Cisco switch and router into one device.

I think is better to have the router and switch seperat.

Torben

 

[chesebert]

Just to clarify, you like it because it improves sound in a way that you like? Or is it because it feels physically more robust?

That’s a good cable. I use it in multiple systems with good results - ie sounds better.

 

[chesebert]

I think is better to have the router and switch seperat.

Torben

I use a dedicated switch with upgrades PSU just before Linn with good results.

 

[TRHH]

I use a dedicated switch with upgrades PSU just before Linn with good results.

Great - just make sure the "last ethernet mile" is very short. I use this:

 

[chesebert]

Great - just make sure the "last ethernet mile" is very short. I use this:

I use a similar cable.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07VVFB8VX?tag=headfi-20

 

[camrector]

I think is better to have the router and switch seperat.

Torben

Can you explain your reasoning?

You are going out from your router to a switch via LAN. Any noise and jitter from your router is being passed directly to your dedicated external switch.
I would be going out of the router via noise canceling fiber to a FMC. Any noise or jitter from a dedicated external switch would be non existent.

Anything hardwired into the Router would be audio only.
Sure home devices could Wifi connect (same as your router) that wouldn’t effect the SFP port signal.

 

[TRHH]

I use a similar cable.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07VVFB8VX?tag=headfi-20

I don't think so. It has no shielding loop - my cable has no shielding connected to metal plug (JSSG360)

Torben

 

[camrector]

I might be on the wrong sub forum here
I’m just noticing that this might be only cable related and not the network audio sub forum.
My apologies if so.

 

[chesebert]

I don't think so. It has no shielding loop - my cable has no shielding connected to metal plug (JSSG360)

Torben

I see. I use shielded cable so the connector must be shielded as well. In my system Cat 8 has sounded better than Cat 6 in general so I stick with shielded cat 8 cables.

in any case networking is system dependent and requires a bit of experimentation.

 

[Jake2]

it is very hard to make a wifi router work well for audio, no matter how you power it or connect it, so my point was that you would get a much bigger return on your investment in terms of improved sound quality from your streaming set up, if you were to spend it on even a basic switch and using it only for your hifi. Up to you of course how you spend your money

Hi Rob, I follow your posts with interest here as I am aware of the reputation of your products and can appreciate the amount of time / experimentation effort it must've taken to develop and refine them. (I'll have to try them one day, as I've read more than one rave review of the Eno and Muon)

So I took on board what I think were your key points from your experience in your exchange with Cam: that routers are typically so noisy they're practically a lost cause (or very expensive to remedy) and that you don't favour FMCs due to the HF noise byproducts of the optical conversion step. On the former my experience aligns - the more switches or filters (I have a couple of the iFi LAN purifiers) I interpose between my streamer and the router the better.

But here's the thing, even with two switches and an iFi LAN silencer in series I can easily hear when wifi is ON vs OFF on the router. When wifi is ON sound gets a little (actually a lot, let's not sugar coat it!) flatter soundstage, thinner, with more glare. This is with the wifi power transmit set to minimum too. The router is located about 1m away from my stereo, not ideal I know, it's just where the cable enters the house. But fairly sure most of the effect is from noise over ethernet not radiated*, so have some well regarded FMCs en route (same Teradak one as Cam and some Finisar optical SFPs) to see if the 100% galvanic isolation of optical helps there.

*OK - stop press - I just tried something I should've done long ago.

Left wifi turned ON then shielded the router with foil, leaving open only the far corner facing away from the hifi gear so I could access the wifi ON/OFF button. I grounded the foil shield with some wire to my Puritan Groundmaster & external ground rod so the foil didn't just reradiate the RF it received. I have a 3 axis RF meter (50mhz - 3.5ghz range) so I checked RF levels adjacent to the nearest corner of the nearest component to the router - my DAC - with wifi ON before and after shielding. Levels reduced from the range of 1.5 - 4.0 µW/cm2 to 0.5 - 0.8 µW/cm2. An RF strength reduction of 65-80%. That's nice and all, what surprised me was the extent of the improvement in sound. Much of the juicy, more full bodied and three dimensional sound of wifi OFF was back. Not all mind, I found after further comparing shielded wifi ON vs wifi OFF, the latter still has a deeper, more expansive sound stage with more PRAT and dynamic weight, and sweeter, more velvety vocals. I'd estimate grounded shielding reduced the negative impact of wifi ON by say 60% give or take. But wifi OFF remains my clear preference, which is annoying, but what are you going to do.

For the record I've been critically listening with wifi OFF for at least the last 6 months, it sounds that much better, especially vs an unshielded router with WIFI ON.

My observation / prelim conclusion - wifi radiation from a nearby wireless router has a negative effect via direct radiation on nearby components, it also seems to have an effect via noise of the ethernet cable. Though part of this could be imperfect RF shielding. It'll be interesting to see if FMCs help improve the sound in the WiFi ON + shielded scenario.

So Rob... thoughts on the above, does that correspond with your experience, what you might expect to see?

(Btw I was going to go on to comment on the audible effect of fo.Q vibration damping on my LHY switch - each layer is quite audible/benefical, but this post has gone on long enough so will save that for another post)

 

[sajunky]

@Jake2. One meter distance can be OK for a WiFi extender which is plugged directly into the power extension box (no power cord), but I would prefer two meters. Important is no power cord, as it spreads a noise by induction as well. If you have grounding boxes, you would need to reposition them in attempt to cancel induction fields.

A router should be definitely placed at least 5 meters, more if it handle heavy traffic. And a different wall socket if you use WiFi extender or FMC. A dedicated LAN segment for audio further reducing traffic on the WiFi extender. Special protocols, another step. Not everything at once.

 

[camrector]

My observation / prelim conclusion - wifi radiation from a nearby wireless router has a negative effect via direct radiation on nearby components, it also seems to have an effect via noise of the ethernet cable.

This is my thought too.
Which is why I’m proposing to go fiber from wireless router, 10m to my Teradak FMC.

 

[sajunky]

This is my thought too.
Which is why I’m proposing to go fiber from wireless router, 10m to my Teradak FMC.

Fiber has negative aspects as well. It is not a spread spectrum modulation like Wi-Fi or 3G and above, but a pulse modulation,. A noise coming out of power supply have strong peaks at certain frequencies, it is more disturbing for electronics than spread spectrum from WiFi. If you still use 2G phone and a phone is ringing or transfer data over GPRS, bring it close to multimedia speakers, you will hear prrrr..prrrr...prrrr, you know what I mean.

Bottom of line, there is no universal solution you need try what works the best for you. A WiFi extender, basic 2.4GHz N300 wall pluggable model without fancy antennaes cost between $10-$15. If you want a separate link for audio, get another one, for a total cost max $30. Traffic from the main WiFi router will not go there. It is so dirty cheap that audiophiles go straight for more expensive solutions.

And don't use shielded cables to your WiFi extender, it would be a mistake. You don't want common mode noise on this connection. Just the ordinary Cat5e UTP patch cable. But you can try network isolators if you have a spare one.

 

[camrector]

Using my Wifi Analyzer shows my Wifi SNR at 60db which is beyond excellent.
I still feel fiber direct from router to a fiber convertor (at a distance with the cleanest power possible) is going to yield a better result.
Less components in the path, less jitter, less clocking artifacts, less distortion, less added noise etc etc.

 

[bpcans]

@sajunky, it’s gotten to the point where I’m contemplating putting a third network switch between my router and my music server just to hear if it does anything positive to the overall sound quality of my setup.