[griff500]

Just so you know, I have been an audiophile a lot longer (50+ years) than I worked in the computer business (about 40 years). I am long past the point of becoming apoplectic about what some audiophiles say.

The point is that transmitting digital data from one device to another via Ethernet and TCP/IP has by far the best accuracy (which is 100% accuracy) in the audio chain. Transforming data from digital to analogue (DAC) is next easiest, although there are different methods for doing that and there definitely be audible differences. Then comes the really hard parts, converting analogue electrical signals to sound waves (speakers or headphones), or converting sound waves to electrical signals (microphones), or converting physical waves to electrical signals (a phono stylus).

There are also obvious audible differences in the amplification of analogue signals to make them playable on a speaker or headphone.

My only suggestion is that people spend the most time and money on the hard parts mentioned above, and given the subject matter of this website, on headphones specifically. If someone has spent a lot of money on getting the best headphones, best amps, and best DAC's, and they have plenty of money left over to spend on fancy Ethernet cables or audiophile switches/routers, that is OK with me, but not something I would normally recommend until all the other issues in the chain have been exhausted.

As I was writing this comment, UPS just delivered my $1,100 Drop-Sennheiser HD-8XX headphones. I hope I like them. That's where I am putting my money.

I certainly agree that cables are not at the top of the list in terms of components and upgrades. There is no sense in polishing a turd…

 

[gregorio]

Nobody denies that data is data or argues about data integrity.

You say that but in the very next sentence that’s exactly what you do!

Ensuring as little noise as possible from the beginning of the chain seems to me to be a good thing and in my experience impacts upon the sound produced by the system.

Digital data has just 2 states, zero or one, that’s it, there are no other states. There is no state for a noisy zero or a noisy one. Any noise or other interference picked up in the digital signal during transport is therefore eliminated when the data is buffered, converted or otherwise processed because it cannot be represented, it’s not a zero or a one.

That’s what digital data is, that’s why it was invented and that’s what you are denying!

G

 

[Mark200]

Which brings me back to my earlier post – everything matters to a greater or lesser extent.

Let me explain it this way. When I travel by car 500 miles to see my relatives, I usually go to a car wash when I arrive in the destination city to remove all the dirt, bugs, etc that accumulate on the car during the trip. If I were to get my car washed halfway through the trip, that wouldn't help very much and I still would have to wash it again when I arrive.

 

[audiobomber]

Just so you know, I have been an audiophile a lot longer (50+ years) than I worked in the computer business (about 40 years). I am long past the point of becoming apoplectic about what some audiophiles say.

The point is that transmitting digital data from one device to another via Ethernet and TCP/IP has by far the best accuracy (which is 100% accuracy) in the audio chain. Transforming data from digital to analogue (DAC) is next easiest, although there are different methods for doing that and there definitely be audible differences. Then comes the really hard parts, converting analogue electrical signals to sound waves (speakers or headphones), or converting sound waves to electrical signals (microphones), or converting physical waves to electrical signals (a phono stylus).

There are also obvious audible differences in the amplification of analogue signals to make them playable on a speaker or headphone.

My only suggestion is that people spend the most time and money on the hard parts mentioned above, and given the subject matter of this website, on headphones specifically. If someone has spent a lot of money on getting the best headphones, best amps, and best DAC's, and they have plenty of money left over to spend on fancy Ethernet cables or audiophile switches/routers, that is OK with me, but not something I would normally recommend until all the other issues in the chain have been exhausted.

As I was writing this comment, UPS just delivered my $1,100 Drop-Sennheiser HD-8XX headphones. I hope I like them. That's where I am putting my money.

Garbage in, garbage out, and there seems to be a lot of garbage (noise and jitter) in a digital system.

I have spent most of my money on my amps and DAC. Upgraded power supplies have cost from $100 to $500. I bought my Cardas cables second hand, and I've spent virtually nothing so far on ethernet cables. Upgrading my DAC, amp or speakers would cost at least $10,000. The Signature ethernet cable I will audition is $400. If it improves the sound quality, it's an easy choice.

I neglected to mention that I use Beyerdynamic DT 1990 Pro headphones, plugged directly into the exaSound DAC. This is a match made in heaven. I listened to the big dollar headphone rigs at the Toronto hi-fi show, and left envying no one. Using the DT 1990 in my desktop system (Schiit Modius, Hafler HA15) is a major compromise, even though the technical specs are pretty much equal.

 

[audiobomber]

Let me explain it this way. When I travel by car 500 miles to see my relatives, I usually go to a car wash when I arrive in the destination city to remove all the dirt, bugs, etc that accumulate on the car during the trip. If I were to get my car washed halfway through the trip, that wouldn't help very much and I still would have to wash it again when I arrive.

This is an old article, but explains jitter better than anything else I've found.
https://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/0509/

Uptone Audio white paper:
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0...enson_EtherREGEN_white_paper.pdf?v=1583429386

 

[Clive101]

This debate is in some ways similar to many others in regard to digital data and noise.
It is not the data that is the problem (usually) but moreover noise ending up in the amplifier.
I must admit I have tried some fancy networks switches and they did nothing for me but I do trust others that state they help as I found differences in USB cables and network cables.
Listen to a laptop putting out files via USB vs a quite high end server there will be a difference in SQ although the data is likely to be the same.
In the former (laptop) network switches and for that matter USB cables make more of a difference in SQ .....that is what I have experienced. I guess they try to clean up the noise in some way.

 

[griff500]

Let me explain it this way. When I travel by car 500 miles to see my relatives, I usually go to a car wash when I arrive in the destination city to remove all the dirt, bugs, etc that accumulate on the car during the trip. If I were to get my car washed halfway through the trip, that wouldn't help very much and I still would have to wash it again when I arrive.

Sorry, I don’t get your analogy. If you’re trying to say that it’s only necessary to clean things up at the end then I would say it’s a lot easier to clean something that was recently cleaned.

Garbage in, garbage out.

 

[Mark200]

Garbage in, garbage out, and there seems to be a lot of garbage (noise and jitter) in a network.

I don't agree that there is any noise or jitter inside a digital network.

Jitter is the time distortion of recording/playback of a digital audio signal. The potential problem occurs when an signal is converted from analog to digital, or converted from digital to analog, but not when a digital signal is transferred in digital format from one digital device to another digital device (such as with a switch/router or Ethernet cable).

Digital-analog converters (DAC) transform sample sequences (digital values) to analog voltage level sequences. In the ideal case, the same time distance between the samples should be maintained. The distance is defined by what is called clocking. However, clocking is not perfect and the restored signal can be somewhat distorted. Jitter is thus a deviation of time between the digital and analog samples (deviation of the sampling rate) only when the conversion from digital to analog is performed (or vis versa).

Therefore, digital jitter cannot be prevented or removed by using audiophile switches or Ethernet cables, since they are not involved in the conversion from digital to analog (or vis versa). Obviously, DAC's are important in preventing jitter.

 

[Mark200]

Sorry, I don’t get your analogy. If you’re trying to say that it’s only necessary to clean things up at the end then I would say it’s a lot easier to clean something that was recently cleaned.

Garbage in, garbage out.

If there is any garbage in the digital data, a switch/router or Ethernet cable cannot remove it (and cannot prevent it).

And no, it is not easier to clean the electrical noise halfway through, because the noise (if it exists) is not in the data, it is in each device.

 

[griff500]

If there is any garbage in the digital data, a switch/router or Ethernet cable cannot remove it (and cannot prevent it).

And no, it is not easier to clean the electrical noise halfway through, because the noise (if it exists) is not in the data, it is in each device.

You completely missed my point. Almost the exact opposite. All of the devices are connected to each other… It’s a system.

 

[Mark200]

You completely missed my point. Almost the exact opposite. All of the devices are connected to each other… It’s a system.

Yes, but the whole point of digital audio is that there is no loss and no noise added to the data when transferring one digital signal to another digital device. This is the opposite of an analog signal where the noise and the data can be intermingled.

 

[audiobomber]

Yes, but the whole point of digital audio is that there is no loss and no noise added to the data when transferring one digital signal to another digital device. This is the opposite of an analog signal where the noise and the data can be intermingled.

You didn't read the jitter and digital noise links I posted above, did you?

 

[gregorio]

This is an old article, but explains jitter better than anything else I've found.
https://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/0509/

I’ve seen way better. Most of it isn’t too bad but the section on jitter audibility is pretty much wall to wall nonsense. He avoids being called a liar by littering it with IME and IMO. Even from the very start, the first jitter audibility tests were in 1950, the first published study I know of was by the BBC in 1974 and there’s been a lot since, so not in its infancy at all!

But you seem not to have read the section on networking, which states:
“Because of the packet-transfer protocol of Ethernet and data buffering at the end-point, the jitter of the clock in the computer is a non-issue. The only clock that is important is the one in the end-point device. Examples of end-point devices are: Squeezebox, Duet and Sonos. This would seem to be the ideal situation, which it certainly is.”

Uptone Audio white paper:
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0...enson_EtherREGEN_white_paper.pdf?v=1583429386

That’s marketing material for a supposed Ethernet regenerator. Do you really expect them to say that there can’t be jitter issues with Ethernet and therefore you shouldn’t buy the unit they’re selling? Of course not, they’re going to come up with some supposed problem that their unit supposedly fixes. A typical example of an age old audiophile marketing tactic.

G

 

[chesebert]

network protocol eliminates jitter as clock signal is not actually transmitted. networking also provides built-in error correction bits; but up to the streamer to determine how they want to deal with it. competently designed streamers will buffer up and ask to resend packet if there is a checksum error.

Buy routers, switches and cables that are built to spec. Cat 6 or better is recommended due to higher data transmission rate requirements - i.e., less noise tolerance.

 

[iFi audio]

If someone has spent a lot of money on getting the best headphones, best amps, and best DAC's, and they have plenty of money left over to spend on fancy Ethernet cables or audiophile switches/routers, that is OK with me, but not something I would normally recommend until all the other issues in the chain have been exhausted.

Headphones/speakers, then either an amp for them or a DAC and then all else seems to be the most common way and it works. But interestingly, accessories such as i.e. USB reclockers or quiet power supplies don't cost an arm and leg these days, so even budget setups can accommodate them. Many users don't have resources for any major purchases above what they already have, so for them experimenting with accessories often is an extension of this hobby.