The Ethernet cables, Switches and Network related sound thread. Share your listening experience only.

Mar 23, 2022 at 3:33 PM Post #706 of 2,484
Headphones/speakers, then either an amp for them or a DAC and then all else seems to be the most common way and it works. But interestingly, accessories such as i.e. USB reclockers or quiet power supplies don't cost an arm and leg these days, so even budget setups can accommodate them. Many users don't have resources for any major purchases above what they already have, so for them experimenting with accessories often is an extension of this hobby.
I can personally attest iFi USB reclocker and AC purifier thing do work and work quiet well for my situation. I keep buying them - I have like 5 of those now :beerchug:
 
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Mar 23, 2022 at 4:00 PM Post #707 of 2,484
I can personally attest iFi USB reclocker and AC purifier thing do work and work quiet well for my situation. I keep buying them - I have like 5 of those now :beerchug:

Thanks and I'm happy to read that these little buggers work well for you. Thanks again and enjoy :)
 
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Mar 23, 2022 at 4:39 PM Post #708 of 2,484
network protocol eliminates jitter as clock signal is not actually transmitted. networking also provides built-in error correction bits; but up to the streamer to determine how they want to deal with it. competently designed streamers will buffer up and ask to resend packet if there is a checksum error.

Buy routers, switches and cables that are built to spec. Cat 6 or better is recommended due to higher data transmission rate requirements - i.e., less noise tolerance.
correct but most people cant or dont want to understand how it works. there is a whole complex chain of events with networking to make sure that the bytes of data sent from one end get to the other end intact but you can still get corruption of data. your not sending 1.s and 0.s your sending algorithms and code in a voltage/light carrier in chunks of data which is compiled/decompiled. depending on the compiler. yes at the very core of every compiler you are dealing at machine code level and 1-0. you need the same one at the other end to decompile. then there is handshaking, memory stacks so on and so on. its all a very very complex matter and works at the blink of an eye. if you are truly interested then take an online course with CISCO.

instead of voltage or light wireless networking uses radio waves as the carrier signal.

IIR audio data also has modulation of the 1-0 so a 1 can be high voltage where the next 1 can be low voltage but 0 is always off (sort of).

but hey i could be wrong......
 
Mar 23, 2022 at 4:54 PM Post #709 of 2,484
Relevance?
 
Mar 23, 2022 at 4:55 PM Post #710 of 2,484
correct but most people cant or dont want to understand how it works. there is a whole complex chain of events with networking to make sure that the bytes of data sent from one end get to the other end intact but you can still get corruption of data. your not sending 1.s and 0.s your sending algorithms and code in a voltage/light carrier in chunks of data which is compiled/decompiled. depending on the compiler. yes at the very core of every compiler you are dealing at machine code level and 1-0. you need the same one at the other end to decompile. then there is handshaking, memory stacks so on and so on. its all a very very complex matter and works at the blink of an eye. if you are truly interested then take an online course with CISCO.

instead of voltage or light wireless networking uses radio waves as the carrier signal.

IIR audio data also has modulation of the 1-0 so a 1 can be high voltage where the next 1 can be low voltage but 0 is always off (sort of).

but hey i could be wrong......
Not sure where you are going with this. You work in abstraction in the digital domain and you use error correction to maintain data integrity. Otherwise you would need to also consider via resistance and CMOS gate leakage.
 
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Mar 23, 2022 at 5:06 PM Post #711 of 2,484
Relevance?
i guess what i'm saying is up to a certain length of network cable it makes absolutely no difference what you use but if you have dodgy termination it will. yes shielding from EMI, AC voltages (the twisting in the cable takes care of a lot though) etc.etc is a must but apart from that it makes no difference... nada.... none. dont believe me then go and talk to a CCNP about it.

you have to remember that the internet is full of cheap cable transmitting between devices and it works pretty well.

its all about the audio industry ripping the hard earned from your pocket... but hey if it makes you sleep at night spending wonga then great.
 
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Mar 23, 2022 at 5:29 PM Post #712 of 2,484
i guess what i'm saying is up to a certain length of network cable it makes absolutely no difference what you use but if you have dodgy termination it will. yes shielding from EMI, AC voltages (the twisting in the cable takes care of a lot though) etc.etc is a must but apart from that it makes no difference... nada.... none. dont believe me then go and talk to a CCNP about it.

you have to remember that the internet is full of cheap cable transmitting between devices and it works pretty well.

its all about the audio industry ripping the hard earned from your pocket... but hey if it makes you sleep at night spending wonga then great.
So apart from the stuff that makes a difference it makes no difference...

I have no idea why you mention cheap cable transmitting between devices - are you still talking about data integrity?

I have found a noticeable difference in the sound produced when using different ethernet cables. Many others have reported the same (this being what the thread is supposed to be about). Some participants persist in banging on about data integrity, which is not what's being discussed.

This thread asks you to share your experience based on listening. Could those who persist in posting that this makes no difference actually take a moment to state exactly what their listening experience was that made them reach this conclusion?
 
Mar 24, 2022 at 4:14 AM Post #713 of 2,484
So apart from the stuff that makes a difference it makes no difference...
Effectively yes. However, it depends on what you mean by “a difference”, a difference in what? A difference in the digital audio, a difference in the analogue audio, a difference in the sound, a difference that is audible or a difference in the perception of a listener? In the latter case, everything can potentially make a difference, a green marker pen on a CD, wooden cable lifters, different Ethernet cables, etc., literally everything and anything can produce a difference in what we perceive/hear. In fact, absolutely no difference whatsoever can make a big difference to what we perceive/hear and musicians have been trained to do exactly that for at least 6 centuries and probably a great deal longer.

If we’re talking about a difference in the sound that is audible though, then most of it makes no difference whatsoever. With some pathological exceptions, the only thing that really makes a difference with modern audio reproduction technology are the speakers/HPs/IEMs and the listening environment.
This thread asks you to share your experience based on listening. Could those who persist in posting that this makes no difference actually take a moment to state exactly what their listening experience was that made them reach this conclusion?
For the above reason, the answer to this question tells us little to nothing at all about the performance of audio equipment. All it tells us in most cases is the susceptibility of the listener to biases and perceptual error, which is hardly useful information because everyone suffers from perceptual error virtually all the time. In fact just appreciating music in the first place is dependent on that fact.

As it’s been specifically requested though, and is in the thread title, here is a brief history of my listening experience:

My listening skills started being formally trained when I entered my teens and played an orchestral instrument. Later in my teens I attended one of Europe’s most respected music conservatories and then for several years played with various orchestras. Then I became a sound engineer, toured and recorded with an international concert soloist for quite a few years, worked with a number of the world’s great orchestras, at many of the world’s famous concert venues and several of the world’s best recording studios. I also worked with a number of well known artists from other musical areas, jazz and popular genres. Later, for about 6 years I was a senior university lecturer and course designer, where I taught, among the other areas of music technology, listening skills. I still currently earn my living as a music/sound engineer.

My listening experience is probably greater or at least equal to anyone on this site but again, that tells us next to nothing. The facts aren’t the facts because I say so, because of my experience or even because a more famous musician, engineer or scientist says so. They’re the facts because they have been reliably evidenced/proven.

Incidentally, in case I haven’t made it clear, I, like all other humans, experience perceptual errors. I have at times perceived/heard differences in cables and all sorts of things, and of course I’ve been trained for decades to deliberately perceive the exact same thing differently. The difference in my situation is that my livelihood depends to a certain extent on knowing what’s really going on and I have the facilities to test, when necessary, whether what I’m perceiving is actually what’s happening.

G
 
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Mar 24, 2022 at 6:28 PM Post #714 of 2,484
Digital financial transactions, digital audio, digital images or digital whatever, are all just numbers (zeroes and ones) and numbers do not have any sound, look, taste or smell
The numbers doesent exist. Its electrical signals. High or low voltage. Yes in binary code form.
 
Mar 25, 2022 at 3:02 AM Post #715 of 2,484
Digital audio is always so interesting to read about. I still do not understand switches and never had one.
 
Mar 25, 2022 at 10:37 AM Post #716 of 2,484
I’ve seen way better. Most of it isn’t too bad but the section on jitter audibility is pretty much wall to wall nonsense. He avoids being called a liar by littering it with IME and IMO. Even from the very start, the first jitter audibility tests were in 1950, the first published study I know of was by the BBC in 1974 and there’s been a lot since, so not in its infancy at all!

But you seem not to have read the section on networking, which states:
Because of the packet-transfer protocol of Ethernet and data buffering at the end-point, the jitter of the clock in the computer is a non-issue. The only clock that is important is the one in the end-point device. Examples of end-point devices are: Squeezebox, Duet and Sonos. This would seem to be the ideal situation, which it certainly is.


That’s marketing material for a supposed Ethernet regenerator. Do you really expect them to say that there can’t be jitter issues with Ethernet and therefore you shouldn’t buy the unit they’re selling? Of course not, they’re going to come up with some supposed problem that their unit supposedly fixes. A typical example of an age old audiophile marketing tactic.

G
Clearly Steve Nugent believes jitter is a problem, which is why Empirical Audio makes a product to correct for it.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=154408.0

Maybe jitter can be fully corrected by the last clock, I don't know, but that does not appear to be the case for digital noise. My evidence is that I can hear changes in my network gear (cables, power supplies) which are separated from my audio system by switches, cables and wi-fi.

John Swenson is widely known as a talented engineer, with decades of experience in silicon chip design (he was a senior project lead at a major integrated circuit firm for 30 years).
https://uptoneaudio.com/pages/j-swenson-tech-corner
So should I believe your claimed expertise, telling me I can't hear what I clearly can hear, or someone with verified credentials, who explains why I hear what I hear?
 
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Mar 25, 2022 at 11:43 AM Post #717 of 2,484
The numbers doesent exist. Its electrical signals. High or low voltage. Yes in binary code form.
True but it makes no difference because as you say it’s still binary. There is no tertiary, so there is no state for say a noisy on or noisy off or noisy high voltage or noisy low voltage.
Clearly Steve Nugent believes jitter is a problem, which is why Empirical Audio makes a product to correct for it.
Clearly Steve Nugent didn’t believe that in the previous article you referenced but now he’s got a product for it, he does. Doesn’t that make you even the tiniest bit sceptical? For me, it’s a big red flag that at the very least requires some investigation before quoting as a reference.
John Swenson is widely known as a talented engineer, with ….
With … a product to sell.
So should I believe your claimed expertise, telling me I can't hear what I clearly can hear, or someone with verified credentials, who explains why I hear what I hear?
Careful here, I’m not telling you what you can’t experience when you listen/hear, I’m telling you what’s not in the sound (that is audible).

Your question is effectively: Should you believe someone who changes their stated belief when they’ve got a product sell, someone with a lot of specialist knowledge who has a product to sell or some anonymous stranger (me) on the internet who claims to have some knowledge but is not selling a product?

I don’t know about you but personally, it’s hard to think of 3 crappier choices! I wouldn’t consider believing any of them but especially those with a financial interest in me believing them. If it were me, I’d either go and find out for myself (using independent reliable information instead of marketing materials) or, if I wasn’t that interested and/or couldn’t be bothered, I’d refrain from commenting publicly to avoid the possibility of making a fool of myself, spreading marketing lies even further and misleading others. But that’s just me.

G
 
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Mar 25, 2022 at 5:46 PM Post #718 of 2,484
True but it makes no difference because as you say it’s still binary. There is no tertiary, so there is no state for say a noisy on or noisy off or noisy high voltage or noisy low voltage.
From my listeningen experience the lower the noise the smps for router and switch emits in the electricity the better the sound. For exe ifi ipowerx vs generic smps. I think the noise travels somehow in the Ethernet cable and enters music streamer or audio chain.
 
Mar 26, 2022 at 2:46 AM Post #719 of 2,484
I think the noise travels somehow in the Ethernet cable and enters music streamer or audio chain.
Yes but as soon as the data is received, it is stored in a buffer, which can ONLY store a binary value, so noise is eliminated because there is no state that can represent it. Obviously, when that data is sent onwards to the next device in the chain, as a digital (electrical) signal, it can pick-up some noise/interference again, until it enters the data buffer of that next device and so on down the chain until the data hits the data buffer in your DAC. This removal of noise picked-up in transit is why digital was invented in the first place.

Now maybe some enterprising audiophile DAC designer could engineer a way around this automatic consequence of how digital data works and somehow allow the noise/interference from the last transfer to pass through at audible levels but I’m not aware of any such DACs and why would an audiophile DAC designer do that anyway? Are there any audiophiles who want a DAC with deliberately audible noise/interference?

G
 
Mar 26, 2022 at 4:18 AM Post #720 of 2,484
Yes but as soon as the data is received, it is stored in a buffer, which can ONLY store a binary value, so noise is eliminated because there is no state that can represent it. Obviously, when that data is sent onwards to the next device in the chain, as a digital (electrical) signal, it can pick-up some noise/interference again, until it enters the data buffer of that next device and so on down the chain until the data hits the data buffer in your DAC. This removal of noise picked-up in transit is why digital was invented in the first place.

Now maybe some enterprising audiophile DAC designer could engineer a way around this automatic consequence of how digital data works and somehow allow the noise/interference from the last transfer to pass through at audible levels but I’m not aware of any such DACs and why would an audiophile DAC designer do that anyway? Are there any audiophiles who want a DAC with deliberately audible noise/interference?

G
Like with anything i think there can be gradations of how much noise can enter the audio device. Can anything exist without gradations? Digital audio/video through ethernet does have a very High minimum level quality that will satisfy most people. But can be improved upon in my experience.
 

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