"The Dragon In My Garage," by Carl Sagan
Apr 28, 2009 at 5:49 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 105

Uncle Erik

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I came across this essay and thought it would make for a good discussion:

Quote:

[size=medium]The Dragon In My Garage[/size]
by Carl Sagan


"A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage"

Suppose (I'm following a group therapy approach by the psychologist Richard Franklin) I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you'd want to check it out, see for yourself. There have been innumerable stories of dragons over the centuries, but no real evidence. What an opportunity!

"Show me," you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle -- but no dragon.

"Where's the dragon?" you ask.

"Oh, she's right here," I reply, waving vaguely. "I neglected to mention that she's an invisible dragon."

You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the dragon's footprints.

"Good idea," I say, "but this dragon floats in the air."

Then you'll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible fire.

"Good idea, but the invisible fire is also heatless."

You'll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible.

"Good idea, but she's an incorporeal dragon and the paint won't stick." And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won't work.

Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so. The only thing you've really learned from my insistence that there's a dragon in my garage is that something funny is going on inside my head. You'd wonder, if no physical tests apply, what convinced me. The possibility that it was a dream or a hallucination would certainly enter your mind. But then, why am I taking it so seriously? Maybe I need help. At the least, maybe I've seriously underestimated human fallibility. Imagine that, despite none of the tests being successful, you wish to be scrupulously open-minded. So you don't outright reject the notion that there's a fire-breathing dragon in my garage. You merely put it on hold. Present evidence is strongly against it, but if a new body of data emerge you're prepared to examine it and see if it convinces you. Surely it's unfair of me to be offended at not being believed; or to criticize you for being stodgy and unimaginative -- merely because you rendered the Scottish verdict of "not proved."

Imagine that things had gone otherwise. The dragon is invisible, all right, but footprints are being made in the flour as you watch. Your infrared detector reads off-scale. The spray paint reveals a jagged crest bobbing in the air before you. No matter how skeptical you might have been about the existence of dragons -- to say nothing about invisible ones -- you must now acknowledge that there's something here, and that in a preliminary way it's consistent with an invisible, fire-breathing dragon.

Now another scenario: Suppose it's not just me. Suppose that several people of your acquaintance, including people who you're pretty sure don't know each other, all tell you that they have dragons in their garages -- but in every case the evidence is maddeningly elusive. All of us admit we're disturbed at being gripped by so odd a conviction so ill-supported by the physical evidence. None of us is a lunatic. We speculate about what it would mean if invisible dragons were really hiding out in garages all over the world, with us humans just catching on. I'd rather it not be true, I tell you. But maybe all those ancient European and Chinese myths about dragons weren't myths at all.

Gratifyingly, some dragon-size footprints in the flour are now reported. But they're never made when a skeptic is looking. An alternative explanation presents itself. On close examination it seems clear that the footprints could have been faked. Another dragon enthusiast shows up with a burnt finger and attributes it to a rare physical manifestation of the dragon's fiery breath. But again, other possibilities exist. We understand that there are other ways to burn fingers besides the breath of invisible dragons. Such "evidence" -- no matter how important the dragon advocates consider it -- is far from compelling. Once again, the only sensible approach is tentatively to reject the dragon hypothesis, to be open to future physical data, and to wonder what the cause might be that so many apparently sane and sober people share the same strange delusion.


 
Apr 28, 2009 at 7:13 AM Post #2 of 105
We are not allowed to discuss religion in this forum.
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Apr 28, 2009 at 1:22 PM Post #3 of 105
Heh. Religion is the reason this forum was invented, so I thought.
 
Apr 28, 2009 at 3:54 PM Post #4 of 105
The dragon/garage analogy is faulty, and erroneous in several respects, whether it's applied to religious beliefs (which is what it is generally used to attack) or applied to cables or "sound science."

And can we please keep the religious discussions, whether direct or implied, out of this forum. Believing that cables or whatever sound different is not the same as belief in God.
 
Apr 28, 2009 at 4:04 PM Post #5 of 105
It obviously wasn't intended as a religious discussion (given the context and the forum), but an illustration as to how people are apt to set up a belief system that can never be scrutinized. I think it's a very appropriate post.

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Apr 28, 2009 at 4:21 PM Post #6 of 105
Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif
The dragon/garage analogy is faulty, and erroneous in several respects[...]


How so? I'm really interested to hear your thoughts.
 
Apr 28, 2009 at 4:51 PM Post #7 of 105
Quote:

Originally Posted by ILikeMusic /img/forum/go_quote.gif
It obviously wasn't intended as a religious discussion (given the context and the forum), but an illustration as to how people are apt to set up a belief system that can never be scrutinized. I think it's a very appropriate post.



Maybe I misinterpreted the OP's intent, but he's made some previous posts comparing beliefs in "audible differences" to religion. And, as I indicated, the garage/dragon analogy is a favorite analogy of atheists, although it sometimes is applied in other contexts.

I guess I should give the benefit of the doubt to the OP on this one.
 
Apr 28, 2009 at 4:57 PM Post #8 of 105
Quote:

Originally Posted by Arjisme /img/forum/go_quote.gif
How so? I'm really interested to hear your thoughts.


Depends what you're applying it to. If the issue is religious belief, we can't discuss that here. If it is "audible differences," it would require more effort than I'm prepare to give it at the moment.

P.S. I always tell myself I'm going to stay out of these Sound Science forum discussions, and then I find myself getting sucked into them.
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Apr 28, 2009 at 5:04 PM Post #9 of 105
Science is very limited in what we know and what it can answer (i.e., science can't answer "why are we here?". Religion is based on historical documents - either belief, atheism or Christianity or the others are based on faith. Yes, it takes faith to be an atheist just like it takes faith to be a Christian. So, arguments for and against never really get anywhere. It's up to the individual to decide.
 
Apr 28, 2009 at 5:11 PM Post #10 of 105
The dragon scenario is inadequate if it's meant as an analogy to cable sound. Reason: One single person doesn't make it plausible. If there were thousands, millions, though... they might indeed be onto something.
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Apr 28, 2009 at 7:10 PM Post #12 of 105
Well, I find myself wondering if it matters? Why do you need to know if there's a dragon in the garage? Does it change the belief of the person who houses the dragon?
Apply this to cables (which, according to forum rules is the only option
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) as well. Does it matter? If somebody is happy with a $10 or a $1000 cable why deny somebody that pleasure? I really don't get it.
Why is it so important to be right?
 
Apr 28, 2009 at 7:28 PM Post #13 of 105
Quote:

Originally Posted by Real Man of Genius /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Multiple people are addressed in the article.
Besides, thousands have purchased snake oil and believe(d) in witches and various superstitions, does that validate those beliefs?



I wasn't aware that it's about beliefs (so PhilS was right?). Anyway, if the Dragon in the Garage has been seen by multiple people, but not by all, who's right then?

Of course I'm aware that the analogy is meant to descredit people who hear differences in cables. In this context it's a bad analogy, because hearing differences is not believing in something other people can't reproduce.
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Apr 28, 2009 at 7:50 PM Post #14 of 105
Quote:

... because hearing differences is not believing in something other people can't reproduce.


But isn't that exactly what it is? As in someone claiming that they can hear a difference but being unable (or unwilling) to demonstrate it in an objective test? If that's not 'believing in something other people can't reproduce' then what is?

I think the Dragon analogy is a good in that believers come up with endless complex reasons why the dragon's existence can't be proven but the one idea they can't accept is that the dragon simply doesn't exist at all. This is exactly similar to the endless debates trying to take blind testing apart bit-by-bit while refusing to accept the most obvious and likely possibility.

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Apr 28, 2009 at 7:59 PM Post #15 of 105
Quote:

Originally Posted by ILikeMusic /img/forum/go_quote.gif
But isn't that exactly what it is? As in someone claiming that they can hear a difference but being unable (or unwilling) to demonstrate it in an objective test? If that's not 'believing in something other people can't reproduce' then what is?


Hearing the effect and sharing the experience with other people open for it. Does this have anything to do with a dragon in a garage which does nothing than appearing as an idea without perceptible effects?

I think the story is indeed aimed at religious beliefs.
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