The DIY'rs Cookbook

Nov 14, 2015 at 3:18 AM Post #91 of 1,974
Johnjen I am very well aware of the series/parallel connections I have an AVO MK4  which I have used for decades before that a Taylor 45C I am referring to the  tube tester you are working on . If you dont believe me then check it out on the net.
 
Nov 14, 2015 at 5:28 AM Post #92 of 1,974
Ah I see…

It does work on 6DJ8's and 6GC7's etc, but not 6550's which are also 6 volt filament tubes as well.

Thanks for the info I'll look into it.

So thus far the only problems I can find deal with it's inability to handle any thing other than 6.3/12.6 volt based tubes (except for 300B and 2A3 tubes)
Nothing I can find says it can't handle 12.6 tubes.

Do you have specific links I can read?

JJ
 
Nov 17, 2015 at 6:21 AM Post #93 of 1,974
[Waving hand] Pick me, pick me!

There are a fair number of tubes I would appreciate having tested. Some 6SN7s as well as various 9-pin tubes - both 6 & 12 Volt (so I hope you're able to work that out).

-Eric
Thus far 9 pin miniture dual triodes of the 6 volt variety are all that thus tester provides result on.
6DJ8's 6CG7's work just fine.

As for 6SN7's etc. I haven't tried any of those yet to know if the analyzer returns results or not.

I'm still work'n it, but it is a conundrum of sorts.

We can figure out the details for testing your tubes in 3 weeks, at the next meet.

JJ
 
Nov 17, 2015 at 6:24 AM Post #94 of 1,974
What and how do we know what IS ‘Better’?
or
It’s all in our heads, or is it?
Part 4 The MASTER Control - DRC



So now we are heading into a little different territory.
Mostly to introduce a few terms and show how they are related to each other.

And I’m going to change the order of the topics just a bit.
And instead of posting all of these at once, I’m going to post them one at a time, even though there will be some overlap.
It will be a much easier read this way.

1st up is a look see at DRC (Dynamic Range Control), then another post dealing with tLFF (the Listener Fatigue Factor), followed by another post examining Acoustic POWER vs Volume, then Jitter gets its turn.

The first 2 concepts of DRC (Dynamic Range Control) & tLFF (the Listener Fatigue Factor) both tie into the related concept of Acoustic POWER vs Volume.

So first off…

Dynamic Range Control
AKA The MOAR Knob
Or, can I crank it up moar, 4 me…?

I have come to think of the volume control as more like a Dynamic Range Control.
When the DRC goes up, all the low level detail comes up and out, accordingly.
IOW there is more there, there.
More to hear in terms of the added harmonically related audible cues or over/undertones that ‘belong’ to their parent ‘voice’ (source of sound).
It is these small signal dynamics which are related, as associated harmonically rich information, that allows me to hear into the music as well as be able to all the more easily, focus on any and all of the different 'voices'.

More there, there.

Side Step of Note…
When I use the term ‘voices’, I mean any individual source of sound, be it a human voice (organic) or a musical instrument of any type.
Each has its own unique sonic signature with a unique set of harmonics based upon and determined by the range of primary frequencies it can generate.
‘Voices’, when presented either alone or en mass, of what ever type, are carefully crafted by the musician to creatively represent the tonal representation of their creative intent.
They can range from being extremely rich in complexity to startlingly simple and everywhere in between.

And one of the purposes of using all of these tools is to be able to easily focus upon any one or any aggregate of these ‘voices’ and hear it in its entirety.
This is a tall order!

This definition will apply to the entire ‘Better’ series.
And now back to our discourse, which is already in progress!


Another perspective or way to say this is, when the system is well tweaked, the volume control doesn't make the music louder, it does however present more of the music to hear.
So when the DRC is raised and lowered and it is never 'loud', I ‘know’ that the overall system distortion is very low.

And let me clarify my use of “loud(er)” so the distinction is more pronounced.
When we listen, what our sense of hearing often perceives as louder, is more distortion, a greater deviation away from the 'natural' sound of any ‘voice’. When these added/induced distortion byproducts start to rise faster than the volume level, we hear that, and interpret it as being loud(er).
And if these distortion byproducts (which ARE harmonically related added ‘information’) were reduced, at the same playback volume level (dB), we would also tend to perceive that the volume had been reduced (if such a thing were possible).
So if this type of distortion were lowered, at any specific playback level, this would 'allow' us to raise the volume level to a greater (dB) amount for a given perceived loudness level.
IOW as these added distortion byproducts are further reduced this enables our ability to listen, comfortably, at a greater volume (dB).

This effectively raises the low level signals up and out of the background and into a more perceptible range of hearing.
This is why I refer to it as a Dynamic Range Control.

For example, if say certain related over and undertones (harmonics) which were created by a particular instrument were oh, ≈ -45dB lower than their primary 'source’ frequencies, and we were playing the source at say 80dB, then these related harmonics are playing at ≈ 35dB, which is close to being buried in the ‘noise’ floor and is at such a low level, as to be difficult to clearly and distinctly hear.
Now raise the DRC (volume control) up to 95dB and those same harmonics are now playing at ≈50dB. In effect we have raised all that low level music above the ‘noise’ floor so that we can hear it much more distinctly.
This is what I mean when I say there is more to hear.

One of my favorite albums is by Gustavo Dudamel entitled Discoveries. I don't remember which track it is (the whole album is amazing) but the final note is one of those big huge drums being hit, hard, along with the rest of the crescendo from the orchestra.
The entire acoustic space gets energized and lights up, and as this boom drops off in intensity AND as it recedes away into the rest of the room, the very character of the boom morphs as the acoustics of the room adds it character to the initial boom. This is where a wider or increased dynamic range can present impressive results.

And let me be clear here.
I am NOT suggesting that anyone NEEDS to listen at elevated SPL’s all the time, but as a test procedure to determine if these low level details are improved, or not, this test can be quite useful.

So when I crank up the MOAR Knob, what I’m really doing is bringing up the low level details into the acoustic presentation so they can more fully contribute to my experience of the music, which means there is moar there, there.

Another way of looking at this is…
As the signal that is converted to acoustic power becomes more cohesive, coherent, and better coupled, the power of the generated acoustical 'wave' is more 'efficient' because less power is 'wasted' or smeared thru time. This smearing means the wave form is slightly out of time and focus, with respect to its original 'parent' source.  So this more precise wave front can deliver more power all because the signal can convert the inherent power in the wave form, more effectively/efficiently into acoustic power.

I notice this as being directly related to the Listener Fatigue Factor, and the ability to crank up the MoarKnob even higher, before discomfort kicks in, as the indication, that tLFF has been improved.
And to determine where Listener Fatigue does start to kick in, to help determine if it has it been improved, will be covered more in depth in the next topic of tLFF.

I have been tracking this as my own MoarKnob ‘behavior’ shifts and changes, and there is a strong correlation to improvements and tweaks I make.

For instance when I soldered the ground return leads (instead of just wire nutting them) at the j-box just upstream from my gear, this essentially 'tightened' or made more 'rigid' the ground connection to the dac and amp.
This was followed up by soldering the hot and neutral wires in that same box as well.
These tweaks provided beneficial improvements in multiple ways such as being able to use Moar of the DRC because of improvements in tLFF.


JJ

End Part 4
Next up is tLFF
 
Nov 17, 2015 at 10:37 AM Post #95 of 1,974
One thing to note is that the low level detail may be masked by the location ambient environment. Reduction in the ambient can also reveal more detail, provided the residual noise of the system is capable. My ambient regularly achieves 30 dBC, 25 dBA. Details at 35 dB SPL are readily apparent. Headphone diaphragms move shorter distances at lower drive levels and thus achieve much lower distortion. Part of my strategy to achieve great transparency as well as preserve my hearing during long sessions.
 
Nov 17, 2015 at 9:28 PM Post #96 of 1,974
Indeed, a lowered ambient 'noise floor' is always a desirable thing.
Some are 'blessed' with such a quiet environment, while others not so much.
I wish I could claim such a low noise floor but alas when the refrigerator and furnace are both off I can only attain ≈ 38dBA using the 'slow' response while the computer is running…:atsmile:

But another aspect I didn't mention which also influences this, is the ear's 'non-linear' FR to the difference in spl level of the music itself.
The Fletcher Munson curves will also influence the perceptibility of low level sounds, especially in the very low end of the FR spectrum, mostly in the choice of musical material used to 'test' for where the DRC has reached a 'limit'.

This can be utilized as an aid in helping to differentiate where the level of sound becomes 'harsh' or unpleasant, as the spl level rises.

And this is where the tLFF comes into the picture…

JJ
 
Nov 17, 2015 at 10:24 PM Post #97 of 1,974
The comparison was blind on RCA's only and not Balanced. I know the Gumby would have wiped the floor with with the Bimby in that mode. For A/B switch look at Mapletree Audio Design. They do make a passive one and I did own a Mapletree A/B switch at one time but never really used it.
 
Hoo Boy is back for a 2nd test of the differences between these 2 Schiit DACS.
And they are even smaller than I thought, while running in SE mode.

User @Stillhart has reported on a previous occasion that:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/763905/finding-a-dac-for-the-cavalli-liquid-carbon-only-four-months-to-go/1005#post_11872598
"The GMB’s SE output sounds noticeably worse (mids are very recessed) than the balanced output. This is very easily tested on the LC [Liquid Carbon]."

Have you noticed anything similar? Does this mean that Bimby is "noticeably worse" than Gumby balanced output (and by extension Yggy)?

 
 
 
I'm quite curious to know about this as well. I tend to agree with stillhart on many issues and we have a similar ear when it comes to gear.  I've heard the gumby a bit and the balanced mode is quite good, but didn't get a chance to try SE. Stillhart did mention the quality was lacking in a noticeable way, not just subtle.  A great amp like the liquid carbon should bring out all the details and nuances in the Schiit dac's like the yggy, gumby and bimby.  I'm most excited to get a chance to spend some time with the bimby and have it paired up with a few amps and hear it. If only I had a gumby at the same time. :D At least i'll be able to compare the yggy and bimby side by side.  Either way, i'm sure the bimby sounds pretty fantastic for it's price point.  I know Stillhart is partial to his DAC19 and I understand why! I used to own one and think quite highly of it for a SE DAC... that's why I ended up selling it and upgrading to the M11.  
 
     I would love to get a cheaper DAC for work, and hoping to hear this Bimby soon! So the above reviews really intrigue me and I thank JJ, AtomicBob and Big Poppa for taking the time to make a write-up review on it. I just hope it's not so bright like most all the Schiit Dac's i've heard. I feel that they might be better at lower volumes if I was to pair it with any of my amps, but nothing short of deafening and sibilant once the volume is up to 90db or so. I think I would like to try the PSIII amp as it might be the ticket to tame the sibilance from schiit dac's. Maybe i'm just super sensitive to higher frequencies. Having a pair of HE560's likely doesn't help, but they are much better after mods. 
 
What tube choices are ideal for the PSIII to keep treble smooth when paired with a bimby? And most importantly, not losing details. Unfortunately my experience with most tube amps leaves me unhappy as many sound very colored and overly smooth or lacking some detail.  The Zana Duex was one of the best sounding tube amps i've heard and would likely be happy with that. :D But the pairing with the HE560 wasn't the best, definitely better with HD800's. I am considering getting a new pair of headphones, maybe Ether C ( I need a good closed back), HE-X or possibly HD800S (depending on price).
 
 
Last question:
Does anyone know of a good A/B switch that would be able to handle at least two separate 4pin XLR balanced inputs and one 4pin XLR output that would be reliable and high quality?
 
 
 
Thanks in advance :D
-T

 
Nov 18, 2015 at 9:47 AM Post #98 of 1,974
Indeed, a lowered ambient 'noise floor' is always a desirable thing.

Some are 'blessed' with such a quiet environment, while others not so much.

I wish I could claim such a low noise floor but alas when the refrigerator and furnace are both off I can only attain ≈ 38dBA using the 'slow' response while the computer is running…
atsmile.gif


But another aspect I didn't mention which also influences this, is the ear's 'non-linear' FR to the difference in spl level of the music itself.

The Fletcher Munson curves will also influence the perceptibility of low level sounds, especially in the very low end of the FR spectrum, mostly in the choice of musical material used to 'test' for where the DRC has reached a 'limit'.

This can be utilized as an aid in helping to differentiate where the level of sound becomes 'harsh' or unpleasant, as the spl level rises.

And this is where the tLFF comes into the picture…

JJ

 

It is hard to get the ambient down so low. I've had to work at it. Not possible for many, depending on location.

The Fletcher Munson curves (now the ISO Contours of Equal Loudness) were determined empirically using pure tones on human subjects and are only part of the equation. Critical bands form on the basilar membrane which have an asymmetrical effect on the Human Auditory System and must be taken into account when considering the masking principle.
 
Nov 18, 2015 at 5:24 PM Post #99 of 1,974
It is hard to get the ambient down so low. I've had to work at it. Not possible for many, depending on location.

The Fletcher Munson curves (now the ISO Contours of Equal Loudness) were determined empirically using pure tones on human subjects and are only part of the equation. Critical bands form on the basilar membrane which have an asymmetrical effect on the Human Auditory System and must be taken into account when considering the masking principle.

"ISO Contours of Equal Loudness"
&
"Critical bands form on the basilar membrane which have an asymmetrical effect on the Human Auditory System and must be taken into account when considering the masking principle"

Looks like more research ahead! :thumb

JJ :atsmile:
 
Nov 19, 2015 at 2:11 AM Post #100 of 1,974
The Fletcher Munson curves (now the ISO Contours of Equal Loudness) were determined empirically using pure tones on human subjects and are only part of the equation. Critical bands form on the basilar membrane which have an asymmetrical effect on the Human Auditory System and must be taken into account when considering the masking principle.


Could you expand a bit more on the critical bands and the masking principle? Is this related to what Metrum identifies as the human ear behaving like a "band-pass filter"?
 
http://www.metrum-acoustics.com/HexEN.html
http://www.metrum-acoustics.com/Design%20Philosophy%20Metrum%20Acoustics.pdf
"Pictured above is a part of our ears. It concerns the cochlea with is located in the inner ear. Every spot in the
cochlea is sensitive to a certain specific frequency. The highest frequencies are registered at the front whil
the lowest are registered at the end of the cochlea. The basilar membrame, which is part of the cochlea,
functions as a base for 15 to 20 thousand hair cells. Each of these hair cells are connected to a nerve which
is connected to the brain. This is only a (very) short summary of the working of the ear because in truth, the
ear is infinitely more complex. We however will limit ourself to the sensory cells (hair cells) that each have
describe a limited range of frequencies in such a way that they all overlap. The sum of all of these determines
the range of our hearing, which on average is between 20 Hz and 20.000 Hz. With 20.000 hair cells their
bandwith is very small and thus very selective
. This means that for one specific hair cell, excepticing the
specific frequency that it is tuned to, a signal gets filtered out at 40 dB per octave. This means that our
hearing on this level behaves much like a band-pass filter
, comparable to the filters found in CD-players.
Implementing filters of this level in a CD-player can thus be described as overkill."

 
[...]
"Because the basilair membrane behaves as a sharp filter for our hearing, it has become, in a certain way,
part of the DAC. The measurements on a NOS DAC are therefore not measured at its logical end-point, but
before the filter (our hearing). Herein lies the problem, which exists when comparing the actual time domain
results and the way in which the Jtest interprets and shows results."

 
Nov 23, 2015 at 11:54 AM Post #102 of 1,974
An interesting presentation from one of the leading audio analyzing experts on why sound and measurements are not always going hand in hand with each other. Most of us are aware that a few basic specs can't show us how a DAC sounds for example, but as you know some people will tell you that a 60-70 dollar DAC can be end-game because of the flat frequency response and low enough THD figures, and nothing could possibly sound better, all you hear from your expensive DAC is placebo. :)
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2V6YN-mshmY
 
Nov 23, 2015 at 2:52 PM Post #103 of 1,974
  An interesting presentation from one of the leading audio analyzing experts on why sound and measurements are not always going hand in hand with each other. Most of us are aware that a few basic specs can't show us how a DAC sounds for example, but as you know some people will tell you that a 60-70 dollar DAC can be end-game because of the flat frequency response and low enough THD figures, and nothing could possibly sound better, all you hear from your expensive DAC is placebo. :)
 

 
Yes, "objectivists" seem particularly fond of spreading this. Only recently in this DS vs R2R thread:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/779572/r2r-multibit-vs-delta-sigma-is-there-a-measurable-scientific-difference-thats-audible/15#post_12039982
"[...] IME the filtered models tend to sound even closer to DS (and I suspect a large part of that is both good R2R and good DS are targeting the same thing: flat, full-range frequency response with as low distortion as possible; if you want to get into non-flat response then yes we can get into "big huge differences" quite easily)."
 
 
They seem to insist that just about any difference perceived individually is (necessarily) placebo since it cannot be confirmed in instantaneous blind AB testing... Mike Moffat has some interesting ideas for blind A/B instantaneous naysayers to test:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/779572/r2r-multibit-vs-delta-sigma-is-there-a-measurable-scientific-difference-thats-audible/195#post_12088877
Originally Posted by Baldr /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
 
[...]
 
 
Elsewhere posted but very germain:  I have a great idea for some – they could blindfold themselves, add earplugs and experiment on making love to various consenting women (or women audiophiles to consenting men – like it would be a problem to find them). They could switch midstroke, to see if they could tell them apart. Those who have never had fun in the process could start getting laid science forums to prove that it is impossible to tell any difference between partners. Those of us who love, appreciate, enjoy, and treat our lovers well would end up with the best. To say nothing of enjoying life.

 
Nov 23, 2015 at 3:54 PM Post #104 of 1,974
   
Yes, "objectivists" seem particularly fond of spreading this. Only recently in this DS vs R2R thread:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/779572/r2r-multibit-vs-delta-sigma-is-there-a-measurable-scientific-difference-thats-audible/15#post_12039982
"[...] IME the filtered models tend to sound even closer to DS (and I suspect a large part of that is both good R2R and good DS are targeting the same thing: flat, full-range frequency response with as low distortion as possible; if you want to get into non-flat response then yes we can get into "big huge differences" quite easily)."
 
 
They seem to insist that just about any difference perceived individually is (necessarily) placebo since it cannot be confirmed in instantaneous blind AB testing... Mike Moffat has some interesting ideas for blind A/B instantaneous naysayers to test:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/779572/r2r-multibit-vs-delta-sigma-is-there-a-measurable-scientific-difference-thats-audible/195#post_12088877

 
 
The main fault of their argument is that they believe that the sound, the whole of the sound they hear coming out of a component, can be represented by 3 or 4 very basic measurements, most of which can be very easily misinterpreted as well. 
 
Nov 24, 2015 at 4:29 AM Post #105 of 1,974
My 2¢.
Until you actually hear a difference due to cables or any such experiment, the experience that makes it real, is missing.
This is when the logical mind assumes it knows what is what, just to maintain its sense of correctness.
And it can all too easily 'explain' away the why's and wherefores, at least to their (and those who agree with them) satisfaction, for both themselves and for others who 'challenge' their opinions.
And it is their opinion that they are expressing, nothing more, because they haven't experimented (subjected their opinion to verification) with sufficient thoroughness.

But once they do hear differences, then the challenge is to come to grips with it.
This can be difficult at times due to their past history of denying there IS any difference, and then suddenly their experience tells them their opinion was incorrect.

Some are more 'flexible' in dealing with change, than others.

JJ
 

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