[tonykaz]

To the mysterious Bimmer100,
 
I am mostly quite serious.
 
Although I do use a bit of silly,  from time to time.
 
I have the feeling that these Garage1217 guys are quite serious designers, are they? 
 
And I realize that AtomicBob is a marvelous Audio Lab guy with tons of superb Lab gear within easy reach.
 
So, my question stands : is the Ember power supply sufficient or does some "need" become apparent that the "Linear" device fills?
 
Sarcasm is anger, I hope I don't give 'that' impression!, I'm asking AB because I value his reasoning and recommendations.  
 
The Ember interests me for the additional energy it is capable of delivering but I'm a Sennheiser man with little interest in power hungry planers, a few extra dollars gets the "top" and latest Garage1217 design. ( or am I wrong on this ?)
 
I do kinda like Tubes.   I started life when 80 & 75 Tubes were in common use, but I've gone Solid-State, decades ago, when I discovered how well they deliver deep bass.  I'm a Schiit Asgard2 owner and a previous Agent of Electrocompaniet.  
 
I no longer am a DIY kind of person but I was in the early 1950s when I was building Ham Radio Stations. Nowadays I trust manufacturers to deliver optimum designs that folks like me would have a difficult time equaling or bettering.
 
Tony in Michigan

 

[landroni]

 
 
"intellectual immaturity" is actually a "soft" interpretation - it can be curable ignorance

 
the other interpretation is malicious intent - or do you have another way of seeing it?

As you very well know, the first reference is a post by Mike Moffat from a very different thread. It was quoted here as it is funny (as in a joke), and evocative of a potentially major methodological failure in the traditional "objectivist" approach when testing things audio.
 
Aside this, discussing the way of thinking and the unrealistically stubborn positions of many "objectivists" cannot possibly be offending. Discussing potential flaws in the scientific method as applied to audio evaluation cannot be either. Yet going straight to words like "intellectual immaturity" and calling people "ignorant" is ad hominem on the face of it. Please remember that "objectivists" have earned very little goodwill from the community by using language, like Ethan Winer whom you quote, along the lines of "audiophoolery". And you're not doing yourself any favors, either, given your language and tone. And if you really wanted something hardcore you'd be reading something like this:
http://www.analogplanet.com/content/gizmodo-wont-post-my-comment-so-im-posting-them-here
 
But you won't find anything like this in this thread. Discussing the potential intellectual weaknesses in the scientific methodology in a very specific setting cannot possibly be deemed offending. Unless of course you are trying to steer the discussion in a very specific direction, gaining moral high-ground instead of actually addressing the arguments and issues raised.

 

[landroni]

And while we're on the subject of ABX testing and measurements in audioland, here's a very measured and pertinent comment from Robert Ludwig:
http://tapeop.com/interviews/105/bob-ludwig/
 
"[Q:] You once said that today's converters, with great clocking, cannot be differentiated from the analog source by anyone you've tested.
[A:] I'm not saying that no one can ever hear the difference, I'm merely saying when someone comes into the studio for a quick visit and I play the source vs. high resolution digital, a 96 kHz, 192 kHz, or DSD copy, no one can immediately pick out the difference. Don't forget, these are all awesome converters. The quality of the engineering of the analog-to-digital converter and DAC is much, much more important to the musicality of the sound than the sampling rate could ever be. Our $8,000 converters at 16-bit/44.1 kHz sound way, way better than a 192 kHz playback from a $5 chip on a DVD-Audio player. I think the higher resolution sounds reveal themselves not in A/B testing, but in long periods of time. Play an entire album in a relaxed atmosphere at 96 kHz/24-bit, then, at the end, listen to it at 44.1 kHz/16-bit, and you'll get it right away. A/B testing, while the only scientific method we have, does not reveal too much with short-term back-and-forth comparisons due to the anxiety the brain is under doing such a test. The brain becomes very left-brain-technical, rather than right-brain creative and musical."

 

[bimmer100]

 
To the mysterious Bimmer100,
 
I am mostly quite serious.
 
Although I do use a bit of silly,  from time to time.
 
I have the feeling that these Garage1217 guys are quite serious designers, are they? 
 
And I realize that AtomicBob is a marvelous Audio Lab guy with tons of superb Lab gear within easy reach.
 
So, my question stands : is the Ember power supply sufficient or does some "need" become apparent that the "Linear" device fills?
 
Sarcasm is anger, I hope I don't give 'that' impression!, I'm asking AB because I value his reasoning and recommendations.  
 
The Ember interests me for the additional energy it is capable of delivering but I'm a Sennheiser man with little interest in power hungry planers, a few extra dollars gets the "top" and latest Garage1217 design. ( or am I wrong on this ?)
 
I do kinda like Tubes.   I started life when 80 & 75 Tubes were in common use, but I've gone Solid-State, decades ago, when I discovered how well they deliver deep bass.  I'm a Schiit Asgard2 owner and a previous Agent of Electrocompaniet.  
 
I no longer am a DIY kind of person but I was in the early 1950s when I was building Ham Radio Stations. Nowadays I trust manufacturers to deliver optimum designs that folks like me would have a difficult time equaling or bettering.
 
Tony in Michigan

 
Tony,
 
Well, to be honest I wasn't entirely sure with you talking about a colorful LED lights and being a "nut case". +walnut presentation case?! really? lol
I wasn't sure if you're trying to insult or actually are being serious. So thank you for the clarification.  
 
As far as linear power supplies... I am not too familiar with the PSIII amp. I understand it has the LM317A LDO linear regulator which should be considered fairly low noise. Correct me if i'm wrong, but is this the one used in the "stock" power supply?  The one recommended, Jays Audio, ALSO has the same LM317. I'm not sure the exact specs of this LPS but if it's the same regulator, it's possibly very similar results... I would think an R-Core would be ideal for the power supply, or at least out perform the Talema. 
 
there is another LPS i'm interested to try. It has the Super 11 LPS board being used, and rated for 20uV! it can be ordered in 24V as well. Thoughts?
 
I believe the PSU is based on the board...
 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Assembled-S11-SUPER-linear-regulated-power-supply-board-LPS-PSU-L1511-10-/191730647300?hash=item2ca4098104:g:yRgAAOSw14xWOE6n
 

 
 
 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/High-end-SUPER-PSU-30VA-DC12V-2A-Linear-Power-supply-LPS-for-Audio-Sources-/121818621995?hash=item1c5cf4a82b:g:5LoAAOSwLzdWTUR6
 
 
 
 
 
 
I am no expert, but from what I do know... I would think this LPS would be better than the 24V Jay's Audio with the LM317
 
 
 
And i'm new to this, as some would call me a "noob".
 
My dad is into building Ham Radios. He has a whole basement full of gear. I have a lot of respect for those who are into that hobby.
 
 
I'm into Solid State gear mostly, and likely have been sucked into a lot of the hype. My setup would likely be polar opposite of what you prefer.

I prefer my HE560's and Oppo PM3's over my sennheiser's. But I have crappy sennheisers  I did just pick up a pair of dynamic headphones from the massdrop special recently. The Fostex TH-X00's.  I am in for a surprise on them. I have no idea what to expect. The idea that they could be a "basshead' headphone slightly turns me off, but some say they are the most neutral of all the fostex line. 600 or 900. 
 
 
Back to Linear Power Supplies. I'm going to order one of those SUPER-PSU's and give it a shot. I have two TeraDak LPS, the DC30W R-Core and the UV9. Also a Teddy Pardo 5V. My gear runs off an A/C regenerator  PS300. I'm not sure if the Linear power supplies are really needed.

 

[jcx]

just don't get it do you? - the "intellectual maturity" comment specifically refered to the application of the OP conditions, pleas for avoiding attacks
 
you don't get to decide, point out "discussing the way of thinking and the unrealistically stubborn positions of many "objectivists" cannot possibly be offending" in this thread if you respect the OP terms, and can apply those to even positions you dislike, disbelieve
 
"tit for tat" is not respecting the OP terms for this thread
 
you should understand too when "jokes" can be offensive in their construction, presentation - and that they also get judged by presenter's apparent motivations
 
 
and you appear very ignorant of my personal position, how I draw the line of "scientific skepticism"
 
as evidenced in my posts in Sound Science - where I am clear that 44.1 can't be "proved" to adequate for every human on the planet - that there are "suggestive" studies - and that they don't rise to the level of revising Fastl
 
if hearing higher sample rate vs well done 44.1 as easy as your link presents then get these example tracks and golden ears to a lab with an experienced, recognized worker in the field - I believe there was exactly such an open invitation published by Meyer/Moran
 
and then with replication of vetted, quality, controlled listening tests academics will revise the textbooks and "the controversy" goes away - "objectivists" are happy to follow the data, "subjectivists" would be able to point to the "official story" - high res download sites get to charge more - what's not to like?

 

[tonykaz]

Hello Mr.Bimmer100,
 
Thanks for writing back.
 
I do like those LED lights, Garage1217 have a three color capability which makes them change to any color a person prefers, a nice feature if a person likes lights. 
 
I am serious about building a Case to house a Tube collection, I own the machinery to make something like this, I understand a person could have considerable funds invested in a selection of Tubes, ( perhaps a thousand dollars or more ).  
 
All of my peer group have various "unique" hobby interests, my Tube adventure would have me being considered as something of a 'Tube' "Nutter" ( in a fun way ).   I have one friend that collects Dictionaries, headphone hobby has folks like Tyll & Jude who own Walls filled with headphones.
 
I'm hopeful that someone on this DIY group will explain the advantage of elaborate Power Supplies.  I do realize that Power Supplies can range from Batteries all the way to storage capacitors.  I suspect that Power supplies are another hobby niche.
 
I'll take AtomicBob's opinion as being useful, if he decides to comment on this.
 
Tony in Michigan

 

[bimmer100]

Hello Mr.Bimmer100,

Thanks for writing back.

I do like those LED lights, Garage1217 have a three color capability which makes them change to any color a person prefers, a nice feature if a person likes lights. 

I am serious about building a Case to house a Tube collection, I own the machinery to make something like this, I understand a person could have considerable funds invested in a selection of Tubes, ( perhaps a thousand dollars or more ).  

All of my peer group have various "unique" hobby interests, my Tube adventure would have me being considered as something of a 'Tube' "Nutter" ( in a fun way ).   I have one friend that collects Dictionaries, headphone hobby has folks like Tyll & Jude who own Walls filled with headphones.

I'm hopeful that someone on this DIY group will explain the advantage of elaborate Power Supplies.  I do realize that Power Supplies can range from Batteries all the way to storage capacitors.  I suspect that Power supplies are another hobby niche.

I'll take AtomicBob's opinion as being useful, if he decides to comment on this.

Tony in Michigan

I want to get into tube amps more, but not sure where to start really. I have never heard any tube amp I liked other than one. The zana duex. That's about it. Otherwise I guess I'm boring and just prefer solid state. I want to build a tube amp with some sort of DIY kit. Just for the fun of it. Now that I have a pair of fostex th-x00's on the way, I think a tube amp may be nice. My he-560's basically sound like garbage on most every tube amp I have tried. I know they are demanding and need to be matched with the proper tube amp.
Anyhow, the psIII as a DIY looks sweet, and maybe a fancy super-PsU. That would make for a great project. I may consider a small tube collection. They surely can be pricey... But I have already spent insane amounts on power cables, interconnects, adapters, headphones and even dap/Dac/amps. So why not have a lot of everything?! I'm already kinda crazy in the eyes of many of my friends. Insane audio gear. One thing is for sure, I don't want to be seen as a wine sipping snob. I do love red wine though


I think everyone has a right to their opinion and I will pass on the drama that this hobby seems to draw in. (Cough) (cough) this thread was interesting and seemed like a drama free thread at first, but I'm likely to unsubscribe now. I prefer straight forward opinionated reviews that I can choose to take with a grain of salt. I love to tweak stuff and love to try things that may or may not work in my setup. So thank you to those who started this thread!! You know who you are! I appreciate the local guys who like to take this hobby a step further and get into the testing and tweaking side of things. I will never forget that it's just about the music for me, but there is a small part in me that loves to play with new stuff like cables, psu's, etc etc. I don't have time to argue about who is right or wrong. Each to their own. This thread surely went off on a tangent. Let's try to keep this on topic. PLEASE!!!! There are threads for those who like to argue and disagree. I believe this thread was created to be a safe haven for those who want to share their experiences. I have said my two cents. No offense to anyone.

 

[tonykaz]

Mr.Bimmer100,
 
Well, there you have it, a Music lover, like myself.  
 
My main interest is collecting Music, mostly 16/44 Redbook CDs.  
 
AtomicBob had me interested in a Bottlehead ( I still am ), now he reports the Garage1217 as being even more interesting.
 
I nearly purchased a Schiit Valhalla 2 ( may still do so ).  
 
I would like to dabble in the Tube rolling experience so the Sunrise and Ember designs seem more interesting.
 
AtomicBob is the guy I'm paying attention to, he and Bob Katz are leading authorities writing to us.  Bob Katz has the advantage of being the actual creator of Music recordings so he owns the Standards we measure our own gear against.  
 
I'll have to include Jason Stoddard & Mike Moffat as useful and reliable sources.
 
Tyll is my main Authority for headphone transducers.
 
I've worked in this Audio Field as an Importer, Manufacturer and Retailer.  
 
I'm aware of the intense "Hype" involved in Sales. I'm also aware of how owners defend their purchases and write as authorities on all things Audio, Head-Fi is saturated with "Ametuer Authorities" gushing with praise for anything and everything.  Let em Gush.  
 
Tony in Michigan

 

[jcx]

complicated regulated supplies do often help with "simple" amp circuits - since "simple" amp circuits often have poor Power Supply Rejection a regulated supply can give better numbers, may even translate to better audible performance in some instances
 
"simple" regulated supplies are possible too - but the size and cost of passives such as power chokes with useful 60 Hz Z, power waste of shunt regulators such as gas tubes or Zeners can be daunting
 
of course in Audio one man's poor price performance tradeoff is likely another's "Statement Amp"
 
 
Mike and Jason may not be the diy audio source you hope for - both have made strong statements that they won't reveal circuit or algorithm details
 
as MOT they can't say much about other manufacturer's circuit choices either
 
 
from what I see of Schiit product internal photos - Jason(?) does use split bobbin EI mains transformers - a hobby horse of mine from long before they formed Schiit
many serious EE board level designers recognize the lower primary-secondary parasitic coupling of Split bobbins compared to toroids
while toroids did have Audiophile cachet from long ago when they were exotic, expensive they are worse for letting power line noise through
you do need greater spacing or shielding with EI leaking more magnetic field than toroids - but you always have engineering tradeoffs

 

[atomicbob]

 
Many people do not appreciate just how much brain processing goes into something as mundane as speech recognition. Let alone analysing and appreciating art in the form of complex harmonics.
 
<edit>
 
I've seen first-hand (and felt it too) how difficult it is to switch just to a 2nd language, so doing switcheroos with DACs within very short periods of time can't possibly be a good idea if the goal is to appreciate the quality of artistic rendering of sounds. Doing so repeatedly will likely make your brain enter into autopilot, some energy saving mode in which subtleties are simply being tossed out the window and only very basic processing is being done.

I perform voice over editing in languages I don't speak due to my abilities to identify and eliminate mouth noises without degrading the utterances, as verified by production managers that do speak the languages. It is very mentally demanding work. I can only begin to imagine how taxing it must be, switching among languages in those of you gifted in multilingual abilities. While the tasks are quite different, the mental processing challenges may be similarly demanding, in my opinion, in determining differences in audible differentiation.

 

[atomicbob]

 
Hello Mistah AB, yet again.
 
I've read y'all writing about Linear power supplies but never gave a thought to why you were using one.  I'd thought the Garage1217 stuff was supplied with Power supplies, aren't they? 
 
I just though that a Lab. guy  wouldn't buy ( or want )  the stock unit if you already had something you trusted.  
 
Now I get the impression that you actually recommend a better than stock Power supply, ( which isn't at all expensive ).  
 
Why?
 
Do the Garage1217 guys offer something? 
 
I kinda like the idea of these little Tube Amps with the colorful LED lights, I'm deciding between the one you own and the Ember.  Maybe I'll become a Tube Rolling hobbyist kind of "Nut-case" my peers will tell funny stories about.  I could make a beautiful Walnut presentation Case for all the Tubes and even have Tube T-shirts printed up.  I need something like this to take my mind off the "Serious" issues facing us.
 
Tony in Michigan

Hi Tony,
 
The Switch Mode Power Supplies (SMPS) provided by Garage1217 are a compromise between performance and price point. The amplifiers from them are targeting a fairly low price point. A SMPS is typically less expensive these days than a similarly spec'd Linear Power Supply (LPS.) The SMPS from Garage1217 are very good, however the LPS I use offer lower noise and better regulation. I'll attach a few graphs.
 
I have both the Project Sunrise III and Project Ember. The Project Sunrise III appeals to me more due to the following:
1. No feedback (NFB) design
2. Class A output stage (no crossover distortion)
3. Tube is employed for voltage amplification with < 400uV of plate current required due to the plate driving the input of a mosfet running class A
4. Mosfet provides current amplification
 
Other attributes that I find useful but not necessarily unique compared to the Project Ember
5. can be configured to have only one capacitor in the entire signal path, the output capacitors
6. Configurable for multiple output impedances
 
The two LPS I use and recommend for the Project Sunrise III are
1. Talema 25W 24V L156-6 Linear Power Supply
2. Keysight (was Agilent, was HP before Agilent) U8001A
 
Please note the Project Ember uses a 48Vdc SMPS. They are NOT interchangeable.
 
Here are some graphs.
These are measured with a Picoscope 5243B running 15 bits in ADC resolution
Measurement point is at the power supply inlet to the amplifier.
 
Garage1217 provided SMPS  4 mVpp ripple at approx 560 Hz

 
Talema L156-6 LPS  3 mVpp ripple at 60 Hz

 
Keysight U8001  <0.5 mVpp ripple

 
Keysight / Agilent / HP electrical engineers definitely know how design a quiet laboratory power supply.
 
The improved performance for these supplies do require a cost tradeoff:
 
1. the Garage1217 SMPS is provided with the amplifier, would cost $18 in single unit quantities
2. Talema L156-6 is approx $120 on ebay
3. Keysight U8001A is now $441 from most suppliers, though an occasional deal crops up for approx $269

 

[tonykaz]

Thank you AB,
 
So, it's ripple that we're talking about, 
 
I hadn't thought of or considered any of the "advantages" you mention, I'd considered "Tube Rolling" as the only advantage.  
 
Now, I understand that Power Supply rolling, OP-amp rolling and a few other things that can be changed or adjusted are the main Feature sets.
 
Garage1217 are a Neurotic/Psychotic's "Dream" design, the Schiit Vahalla 2 would be the other side of this Coin. ( along with the Bottlehead that I liked so much )
 
All of us reading this Head-Fi are DIYers, some work with a soldering iron, most work with a Credit Card, we are on a fun Adventure.
 
Thank you for offering reliable advice on these matters.
 
Tony in Michigan

 

[landroni]

  I perform voice over editing in languages I don't speak due to my abilities to identify and eliminate mouth noises without degrading the utterances, as verified by production managers that do speak the languages. It is very mentally demanding work. I can only begin to imagine how taxing it must be, switching among languages in those of you gifted in multilingual abilities. While the tasks are quite different, the mental processing challenges may be similarly demanding, in my opinion, in determining differences in audible differentiation.

Which brings us to the next logical point: "golden ears" is hardly about the "ear" per se; it is about the brain. It is about concentration, attention, pattern recognition and analysis, directing as much brain processing resources as possible towards the task of analysing complex and multilayered harmonics.....

 

[nedifer]

Originally Posted by atomicbob /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
The improved performance for these supplies do require a cost tradeoff:
 
1. the Garage1217 SMPS is provided with the amplifier, would cost $18 in single unit quantities
2. Talema L156-6 is approx $120 on ebay
3. Keysight U8001A is now $441 from most suppliers, though an occasional deal crops up for approx $269

 
Hi atomicbob,
 
The one component that sometimes gets left out of the discussion around implementing linear power supplies is the cable used between the linear power supply whatever it is powering.
 
Do you usually build these by hand?  Or are they available for purchase anywhere (from the linear power supply vendor or third parties)?
 
It seems to me that this might be useful information, particularly for those of us who might not be comfortable with building a custom cable (particularly if wiring it incorrectly might put the equipment we want to power at risk).  And looking at the various things around the house that are powered via wall warts, there can be a not insignificant amount of variance on the kinds of connectors used, polarity, etc...
 
Any insights you have on this would be much appreciated, time permitting of course.
 
Thanks!
 
--Nedifer

 

[johnjen]

My 2¢ about Power Supplies (PS).
Besides just the noise level the PS delivers to the active amplification sections of the load, there are other aspects of the 'behavior' of the PS that can and do influence the sonic performance.

There are a slew of terms used but the one that seems to standout (at least for me) is the 'stiffness' AND the response time (slew rate) of the power supply.

IOW when the active amplification section calls for 'power', how quick can the PS supply the current demanded by the active stage.
AND
By 'stiffness' is implied how well does the voltage stay 'stationary' (not sag) during any current dump.

The less the sag AND the greater the speed at which the PS responds to the instantaneous demand for power, the less influence it (PS) will have on the sonic 'signature' of the amp itself.

Another way of thinking about this is…
The PS is providing the power for the analog signal, PLUS the 'wasted' energy needed by the circuit to operate and even BE an amp or other active circuit in the first place.
IOW the PS needs to supply the power that turns into the signal we hear.
Which in turn means it 'ideally' should exactly track the analog signals dynamics.
The only difference is we use a modulated voltage signal to determine the audible results, whereas the PS is modulating the current flow instead.
In fact the idea that an amp IS a PS, one that can be modulated to provide a 'perfect' analog signal, has been around for a while now.

Put another way the PS is (or should be) a direct reflection of the analog signal, along with supplying the additional power to operate the entire electronic device, at the same time.

Some PS's do a better job at meeting both the voltage and current demands for audio, than others.

JJ
ps just to clarify, when I start out with "my 2¢" I am expressing my opinion, which as I see it all are free to do.
With but one proviso,
AS LONG AS the contributions are constructive, which is a creative activity in contrast to it's polar opposite.
That being criticism and BMW'ng (Bitching Moaning & Whining, which is a holdover from another site) .:atsmile:

There are ways of asking questions to resolve questions that don't need to be confrontational.