[markl]

Did you know that the humble Compact Disc, the 20-year-old "CD", has been sent out to pasture and is now obsolete?

Chances are you had no idea. This is not your fault, as the owners of the new technologies have done very little to spread the word.

Welcome to the world of "high-definition digital audio", which comprises two "competing" new formats-- the Super Audio CD and the DVD-Audio disc.

Both of these new formats look just like the CD-- they're the same size, and comprise round shiny discs set in plastic "jewel cases". Yet, in most instances, they will only play back on separate machines specially designed to handle each format, although there are now a few machines on the market that will gladly play back both new formats along with the standard CD.

Hi-Rez formats FAQ's/Glossary:

1. What is "Redbook CD"?
Redbook CD is a simple way of defining standard 16-bit CDs that are in your music collection right now and most widely available in record stores. "Redbook CD" refers to the standard for producing Compact Discs that originated 20 years ago. The new formats (SACD and DVD-A) pack in much more musical information on a standard-sized Compact Disc than can be captured by an old-fashioned "Redbook CD", and as a result, they sound much, much better.

2. What was wrong with the CD to begin with?
This is a logical question for younger folks raised on free digital downloads in MP3 format. Your free copies of copyrighted material are stored in a vastly inferior format-- a format that even lags way behind the inferior 20-year-old CD technology, the humble "Compact Disc" that would cost you $16 or more in a legitimate record store.
When Sony launched the CD, years ago, they promised "perfect sound forever". But this was just corporate hubris. Ask most audiophiles, and people who really care about the quality of sound reproduction and they'll tell you that the positively antique LP ("vinyl") technology is vastly superior to the CD. This is why vinyl music has failed to evaporate completely, despite the dominance of the CD. CD is missing a lot of information that is preserved in pure analog reproduction of the master tape on vinyl LPs.
SACD and DVD-A are credible attempts to bring digital technology up to the standard set by analog, and to provide formats that clearly exceed the capabilities of the humble CD, and in many ways even surpass the capabilities of the older analog (vinyl) format. In my opinion, they succeeded handily in this mission.

3. But hasn't CD technology come a long way in the last 5 years?
Yes it has, but to get the most from your CDs, you'll need a CD player that can "upsample" to the kinds of bit-rates that are native in SACD and DVD-A recordings. That means you have to upgrade your CDP to an expensive modern machine that will upsample (which is still just an "approximation" of real native 24-bit hi-rez digital audio). So, you might as well invest in a new SACDP or DVD-Audio player that will give you sound that rivals the actual master tape from which they are recorded.

4. Aren't the new formats all about multi-channel playback? Aren't the new formats all about scamming people into buying surround systems to play back stereo recordings that have been "tricked-out" to play back in multi-channel? How are multi-channel mixes relevant to two-channel headphone sound?
Even in their two-channel form, SACD discs and DVD-Audio discs provide vastly superior 2-channel reproduction of the original master tape compared to standard "Redbook CDs". "Surround-sound" is only one of the *potential* benefits that the new formats can provide. Of course, if, like me, you own a Home Theater rig with multiple channels, you can also take advantage of the multi-channel mixes provided on *most* hi-rez discs. Remember-- they laughed at stereo when it was first introduced. I mean, who needs more than one-channel mono? Multi-channel music is the future, but that's a different discussion... You need to know that the regular two-channel playback on SACD/DVD-A vastly exceeds what is possible in standard Redbook CD. And that translates to vastly better sound through your 2-channel headphones....

5. But aren't SACD players (SACDPs) and DVD-Audio players inferior to most CD-only players of comparable price with regard to playback of my regular CDs? All I have are old-fashioned Redbook CDs in my collection. If these new players don't sound good on my CDs, why should I care?
Something else to consider-- the "average" SACDP/DVD-A player has Digital-to-Analog-Converters (DACs) that will handily outperform the "average" 16-bit CD DAC on your "average" CDP. This is because they are built to a much higher standard to be able to accomodate the demands of SACD/DVD-Audio. Many audiophiles spend lots of cash on external DACs to help improve the sound of their Redbook CDs. Machines equipped to play back the new formats already have highly sophisticated DACs as a standard part of their anatomy.
That means that your "typical" SACDP or DVD-A player will outperform your "typical" CD player even on your regular CDs (called "Redbook CDs"). This is admittedly a controversial opinion of mine, but it's honestly how I feel.

6. But there are so few SACD and DVD-Audio titles available!!
A reasonable objection, but this is changing. These formats are in their infancy, and they will continue to increase the number of titles availbale in these new hi-rez formats. More and more record labels are endorsing one or the other format and scheduling releases by major artists in the new formats. Stay tuned!

7. Surely this is a scam to make me re-purchase all my old CDs all over again! I've got a lot of money invested in my CDs!
Nope. The beauty of the new formats is that they are both 100% backward-compatible with the CD. You can play your entire CD collection on any DVD-A player or SACDP. No one is going to force you to replace your CDs with SACDs/DVD-As. Although, once you hear what the new formats can offer, you will be sorely tempted to replace your favorite CDs with the SACD/DVD-A versions!

8. Ugh! I don't want to get in the middle of a format war! I'll wait 'til the dust settles.
There is no format war. Why? because manufacturers are releasing universal players that will play both SACDs and DVD-A discs. Going forward, all or almost all SACD/DVD-A players will be universal and able to play both formats. This is NOT equivalent to VHS vs. Betamax as you couldn't play your VHS tapes on your Betamax machine.

9. Yeah, but SACDs and DVD-As are more expensive than CDs!
SACDs are now the same price as regular CDs, or at most $2.00 extra at Tower Records, for example, and certainly over the Web. They recently slashed the suggested retail price of DVD-Audio discs to $18.99. Prices are already achieving parity and will ultimately be the same.

10. What's a "hybrid" SACD?
A "hybrid SACD" is a disc that can play back on both SACD-equipped players and standard, old-fashioned "Redbook CD" players. It has two layers-- one with a standard CD version and another with an SACD version of the same recording. The most "famous" example of "hybrid" SACDs are the new Rolling Stones re-masters. These SACDs will play back on any standard CDP, but of course, you'll need an SACDP to play back the SACD layer and hear it in all its glory. It's via hybrid SACDs that Sony hopes to plant the market with "stealth SACDs".

As someone who owns *both* a SACDP and a DVD-A player, I can tell you that recordings released in these new formats are VASTLY superior to the Redbook CD versions. It's not even close.

If you care at all about audio and audio fidelity, and you must or you would not be here, you should be willing to consider investing in either or both of the new formats. If you are in the market for a new CD player, I urge you to consider a player that can also handle SACD, DVD-Audio, or both. In the long run, you'll be glad you did...

This may surprise some people, but I heartily agree that if you are already happy with your current Redbook source, neither of the new formats offer compelling enough collections of titles *at this time* to make one want to rush out and get a player just for the sake of getting a player. This is especially true considering that the universal DVD-A/SCADPs are finally starting to show up, and will continue to improve in brand selection and quality as time progresses. If you can wait another year or two, you'll have lots more choices in universal players.
But if you *are* in the market for a new source today, I can't think of many reasons *not* to buy a SACDP or DVD-A player.

I'll be happy to respond to any questions (or "flack") this thread creates. This really is only the very tip of the iceberg of a very big topic!! Your questions are welcome, I'll do my best to answer them! I'm just an audio enthusiast who feels he's seen the future of audio and wants to *share*!

Mark

 

[DanG]

Ugh, it will take a long time to respond to this post. You can be sure you'll get one soon.

Long story short, I had high hopes for SACD. But at the time I bought my Meridian 508 (several weeks ago) there still wasn't an SACD player that could compete for the price -- new or used. There still is no software available -- I don't mean that there isn't much, there's no software available within the price that I'm willing to pay (under $15 in all cases, usually under $12). DVD-A is watermarked. I will never use multi-channel for audio unless multichannel begins to mean many speakers in front of you to represent different instruments or parts of the orchestra. By the way, my 1996 Meridian doesn't upsample, but I prefer it to the upsampling 2002 Cary CD308 which has newer chips and transport mechanism.

If I get an SACD player in the next three years it will only be if there's software being released only in DSD. And it'll be a cheap player, because eventually the audio industry will smarten up and create a high-bitrate PCM format without watermarking. Thomas, if you're reading this you'll note that I've changed my position to agree with you.

 

[markl]

DanG,
Yes, there are CDPs that will currently play back regular Redbook CDs better than your "typical" SACDP or DVD-A player (currently on the market as these are mostly mass-produced machines). I will not dispute this. If you've spent $3K on a modern CDP, you'll get better Redbook playback on that specialized, audiophile CDP. But it will never play back SACDs or DVD-A's so it's already "obsolete" by my standard.

You must admit that your Meridian is hardly an "average Redbook CDP", yes? Surely you've seen the latest audio mags-- no one, not even Meridian, will be introducing hi-end CDPs that can't also play back SACDs/DVD-A's.

Again, open to debate. Cheers.

Mark

 

[Hirsch]

I've had an SACD player for almost two years, and recently bought a second one. I've got about 20 SACD's. I've had a DVD player for around four years (and have had six, two of which are redundant with the SACD players). I've got close to 1800 DVD's (and had over 1000 after being into DVD for two years). One of these is a healthy and growing format...

After careful consideration, I just bought a new player. It only plays redbook. I decided I'd rather put my money into hearing what I have played well, rather than dumping more money into hardware for a format that isn't here yet.

Yes, the ice is finally breaking, and it looks like we'll start seeing SACD's. Yippee. If DVD-A goes under, that will actually be a positive sign for hi-rez, IMO, as there's nothing like a format war to stunt the growth of both emerging formats.

 

[markl]

I'm willing to bet that both formats will survive. Both of them.

These big collections of corportaions (on both sides, equally impressive) haven't invested so much on a lark. They mean business. They mean for these formats to become the future standard. I believe them.

Mark

 

[Dan H]

Dan G and Hirsch make the major point, so little softwear and cost. I do own a SACD player that I enjoy very much. However my last audio purchase was a good quality Redbook DAC. Sony is the best example I've ever seen of how NOT to market a product!

 

[gloco]

I'm with Hirsch on this one. I just don't see the need for a SACD/DVD-A player right now...and guess what? I'm probably speaking on behalf of the whole consumer audience that doesn't view SACD/DVD-A as a redbook killer (i think the average person doesn't even know or doesn't care to know). I'm just not interested in these new formats at all, i get the feeling SACD/DVD-A won't catch on the way DVD movies did. Eventually the new formats will be phased in, but i think it may be years down the road until it trickles down to the average buyer....which make the bulk of the sales in audio stores.

 

[Duncan]

SACD (Players)... non-existant in the UK, apart from some very hi-end shops...

DVD-A... not even seen one, couldn't tell you what it looks like

Trouble is with this, the majority of people out there are quite happy buying their mini systems and suchlike that don't support either format, and where SACD is more expensive (although i'll agree that its not by much) ~ a lot of people will be thinking... why should I pay $20 for this (SACD) when I can pay $16 for the exact same thing here (redbook)

Times will change, and redbook probably will eventually become less popular than one of the rivals, but I doubt it'd ever die out altogether, even for the fact that I myself would not be prepared to go out and re-purchase my 1000+ redbook CDs in another format..

I myself bought a new CD player yesterday, and SACD or DVD-A didn't cross my mind as being one of the required features... so if you think that us here, with the 'knowledge' are in the minority... doesn't bode quite so well as your argument dictates markl... sorry

 

[wasifazim]

Quote:

Originally posted by markl But hasn't CD technology come a long way in the last 5 years? Yes it has, but to get the most from your CDs, you'll need a CD player that can "upsample" to the kinds of bit-rates that are native in SACD and DVD-A. That means you have to upgrade your CDP to an expensive modern machine that will upsample (which is still just an "approximation" of real native 24-bit hi-rez digital audio).

Not necessarily...some of the best CD players and D/A converters don't upsample; it's hardly set in stone.

Quote:

Something else to consider-- the "average" SACDP/DVD-A player has Digital-to-Analog-Converters (DACs) that will handily outperform the "average" 16-bit CD DAC in your "average" CDP. That means that your "typical" SACDP or DVD-A player will outperform your "typical" CD player even on your regular CDs (called "Redbook CDs"). This is all the more reason for you to buy a new CDP that can play back DVD-A or SACD discs.

Not sure what your definition of "average" is, and I don't see the logic behind this statement. Just because a player is capable of DSD doesn't mean it's PCM performance is automatically superior to that of an equivalently-priced redbook CD player. Consider any of Sony's non-ES SACD players: they sound great w/ SACDs, but redbook audio is disappointing. Frankly, even an unmodded SCD-333ES's redbook performance leaves much to be desired.

That said, as a fellow SACD convert, I can certainly appreciate your optimism..

- Wasif.

 

[wasifazim]

I should add that, prior to the acquisition of my current digital source, I too was concerned about the availability of SACD titles and whether SACD and/or DVD-A would last; fortunately, the Marantz SA8260 (and by all accounts, it's close cousin the Philips SACD1000) both do a superb job of redbook playback; I can't think of a (new, not used) redbook-only player in the US$800-$900 price that's clearly superior. If an unlikely worst-case scenario plays out whereby SACD dies out, I'll still have a very good unit for redbook audio.

As for the software pricing issue, that's coming down as well, though still not to redbook level..Elusive Disc has the hybrid multichannel SACD of Diana Krall's "The Look of Love" at US$18.

I personally feel that SACD will survive as a niche product; it won't supplant redbook CDs because the average "crappy-Discman-hooked-up-to-Sony-StreetStyles" user won't be tempted to purchase it.

- Wasif.

 

[SumB]

Sony/Philips aren't going to keep SACD around for a tight niche of audiophiles. Much like CD audio, this medium was created out of the prerequisite greed rather than the quest for ultimate fidelity. Now that CD licensing fees are none too profitable we have yet another format we're supposed to embrace and replace our entire libraries with. In another 10 years we'll have something else that promises to be what the SACD/DVD-A could've been, and so forth, and so forth, until a parity with vinyl reproduction is reached.

Why get on the boat before it's ready for prime time? Furthermore, what makes you think a mass market, many of whom are ready to dump the humble cd for audio of even greater sonic compromise, will latch onto the new formats? The average person isn't even aware of their existence. The marketing and subsequent explosion of consumer interest simply isn't there as it was with the advent of the CD.

 

[jpelg]

Unlike when we all coverted from vinyl to CD's, the CD industry has an opportunity to dovetail their products into the new hi(er)-end product. But where are all the hybrid SACD's? Most of the selections at my local BB or CC are single format only. That makes the price diff harder to swallow, especially since I can't play the same disc on an older redbook machine (home or portable). I would be far more likely to purchase a hybrid CD for $3-$6 more, and hedge my bets. This gives me the best of both worlds. But to pay a premium for a new-format only is not going to sway me to that camp.

Also, despite the prices of the hardware itself, most music listener's major investment is in the software. Even if all of their existing titles were available in the new format (which they will probably never all be as is still the case with some preciously obscure vinyl), they are not going to run out and replace them all immediately. Here again, a hardware product that allows at least equal performance::$$ in both formats, compared to a similiarly priced, redbook-only hardware would create more of a stir in those people still sitting on the sidelines. How many products can claim that kind of performance right now?

While I don't doubt the technical superiority of the new formats (although I've never even seen, much less heard a DVD-A recording), in a world where the success of a musical artist is measured in the seven-digit selling numbers, it is integration of the marketing to the masses that will allow the higher-end product to survive.

(See www.microsoft.com for further information. Let's hope that SACD isn't the OS/2 of the new millenium.)

 

[RickG]

Quote:

Originally posted by jpelg Unlike when we all converted from vinyl to CD's, the CD industry has an opportunity to dovetail their products into the new hi(er)-end product. But where are all the hybrid SACD's? Most of the selections at my local BB or CC are single format only. That makes the price diff harder to swallow, especially since I can't play the same disc on an older redbook machine (home or portable). I would be far more likely to purchase a hybrid CD for $3-$6 more, and hedge my bets. This gives me the best of both worlds. But to pay a premium for a new-format only is not going to sway me to that camp.

Sony is to blame for that. And while I'm a "high-res" fan, I can't condone Sony's plan: Only dedicated SACDs and machines to play them on. All the other labels are releasing hybrid disc that will play on anyone's machine.

Unless there's a compromise from Sony, they'll be left in the dust- just as they were with the Beta-Max video format.

Oh well,...<scratches head>

 

[williamgoody]

I agree it will be a niche market. And I'm coming from the other side of the spectrum: the music buying public.

I've worked in record stores off and on for the past six years, and I have to say the mass market consumer has no clue/has no interest to invest(given the cash involved) the potential of high end audio. CD's when they were introduced became wildly popular yes because of better sound, but mainly because of convenience. No more eaten cassette tapes, no more rewinding or fast forwarding to get to the next song, etc. People these days don't really "listen to music" (keep in mind I'm referring to the average joe), they use it to accompany their lives while they do things.

That's why I believe mp3's to be so popular. Although more of the popularity obviously to the technology, All you do is click the file and listen.

Until the industry (of which there is a high distrust in these days) comes out with another format to really enhance the convenience of playing, carrying, "using" music, you won't see an "exploson" in a format, or the "death" of the CD. And this has nothing todo with the ,erits of SACD/DVD-A. It's still all about economics and marketing to the masses.

 

[BDA_ABAT]

Isn't this really a classic chicken-egg phenomenon? Lack of hardware means that many providers aren't going to make software available in different formats. Lack of software means many manufacturers aren't going to go buck-willy with products. That lack of competition will keep prices higher than they might otherwise be. Higher prices will limit sales to those (mainly those at this site and other audio sites) knuckleheads who really care about the sound. And lack of sales will help keep other folks from investing in the new technologies. Competing formats means that a bunch of folks (hardware, software, and consumers) are going to wait until the dust settles a bit before committing.

There are a number of reasons why the process of converting over to one or another format will likely take a while... (just remember, how long did it take for CDs to really take over? And they had several major, practical advantages over LPs {as well as looking totally different!}) but what jpelg said is a huge issue.

How many regular people do you know that would be willing to start over AGAIN (after many changed from LP to CDs) re-creating their music catalogs? Remember, those are the same people who are perfectly happy with their crappy stock headphones.... the ones who care more about what the units LOOK like than what they sound like.

One other issue: making copies. Is it possible to make exact copies of SACD or DVD-A? Without that ability (and I don't think the RIAA will be really excited about allowing copying in any form), that will limit acceptance further. People are now USED to making their own CDs. Will be very difficult to get people to accept that they will not be able to swap/share/re-mix music now that everyone has a CD burner on their computer.

I'm excited about the possibilities of SACD and DVD-A. Just don't believe that the mass market is or will be excited enough to allow these new formats to really take hold for a while (read: years).

Just my $0.02

Bruce