[shamu144]

So true.
 
But this applies as well to lot's of modern digital gear. Think time and phase response.
 
Care and time is needed to really maximize the potential of the DT48.
 
Quote:

 
To appreciate the DT48, you need to forget everything you may like in modern headphones which have gone on the wrong direction in designing headphones.

 

 

[judy1992]

I have a pair on the way.

 

[oldshoe99]

If you have not owned a DT-48 as yet, then by all means do yourself a big favor and read the review by Audiophath at the B&H website (DT-48E, 25 ohms).  Please take into consideration everything he says, since his review is short and to the point, and you will experience exactly what he did.
 
Edit: I think the DT-48A is better than the DT-48E, and it's beautiful with the red/blue earcups.  But it comes with the wrong pads, and it does not have a plug on the end of the bare wires.

 

[maniacal71]

Quote:

Mmm, I don't really buy the theory of the impedance mismatch... In my experience, the DT48A version is pretty insensitive to different output impedance (0, 33 and 200 Ohms tested). It is however very sensitive to the signal quality (and possible EQ build in).
 
Quote:
 

The noticeable changes are on the 25Ω, so far I only have tried to very good results on the Vintage 48 @ 25Ω with a 120Ω adapter and running from a simple Indeed G2 which widened out the head stage and the hybrid amp brought in the bass to quite a measurable degree (aka DT770@600Ω bass) albeit the very forward mids (more forward than the A) is pushed back a few feet and highs back up, so I would say sounding closer to the A.
 
The DT48A has a good spread out sound, bass is very heavy but quick, decay as quick, the mids still rule and highs are trebly, very good and accurate with lifelike representations, tonality /timbre of voices and instruments are first class, seldom found in dynamic or "other" types, which although are highly regarded in their own right, they still can't compare as equal or better than the DT48A with the new E pads. The Linear II that you have has slower decay and they would feel warmer, am I correct to say that?
 
I own 1 DT48S@5Ω Nagra, 2 Vintage DT48@25Ω (Blank) and 1 DT48A@5Ω with new logo but really faded colors, fitted with new E pads, previously on the circumaural rubbers (too uncomfortable for long use).
I don't EQ so i can't say, but it is very dependent on the source and everything in between.
 
 

 

[maniacal71]

Hold your horses, the DT48E 25Ω Vintage sounds best from a mosfet amp, without the need for the impedance adapter.
 
Also have solved the bass issue, I stuffed the ear pad cavity with Beats Solo ear pads, maybe the PX100 ear pads could fit well too. The clarity of the midrange is still unchanged even though the bass has better extension and not recessed any more. So it is a case of not getting a good seal.
 
Also tried them from a Burson HA160D a Heed and the WA6SE, all could drive the DT48 E/A/S well. But the cheapest solution I have is running from my Indeed G2 hybrid mosfet amp.
 
 

 

[shamu144]

For those who are interested, here are my findings and comparative impressions concerning the DT48A (with E oval pads) and Sennheiser HD250 Linear II (Oyaide HD6X0 cable).
 
 
 
For some reasons, those 2 headphones have a very close functional design (closed back studio monitor), and I guess they could appeal to a similar audience, which makes this comparison fun to write.
 
I have only a few weeks with the HD 250 II, but I have been trying to listening to it exclusively since I received it. It is indeed a worthy challenger to the DT48A (at least to my ears).
 
First, let’s talk about comfort and isolation. There, the HD250 II is as good as it gets for a closed headphone. Much more comfortable and lighter overall than the DT48, with large and confy earpads (contact with the skin is very nice), it won’t make you sweat, even during long extended listening sessions. The clamping force is just right so isolation is still excellent (just a notch less than the DT48). No contest, the HD250II is just far superior here. It reminds me a little bit the fit and comfort of the K501, but with the added isolation and a nicer texture and finish of the pads.
 
Yes, build quality is not really comparable as the HD250 II looks and feels like cheap plastic, as compared to the sturdy and indestructible build quality of the DT48. Yet, it doesn’t fall apart or give the sensation it will break easily. I guess the HD250 II was a very good compromise at its price point ($200-$250).
 
Before getting into more details about the sound comparison, I thought it would be interesting to notice that the frequency response of both headphones have been designed with an opposite philosophy. The HD250 II is a diffuse field design goal, while to me, the DT48 is as close as a free field design goal you can get. This is in fact very important, because the overall presentation of the signal varies a lot based on those assumptions. The most obvious difference is the spatial cues conveyed by each headphone: while the DT48 put you straight in contact with the instruments (each have its proper decay and resonances radiating and you can almost mentally walk around them), the HD250 II kind of put you behind a console mixing station and homogenise the different sound fields, and kind of mute the decay or resonances around the different instruments. The HD250 II is to a studio recording what the DT48 is to a live recording. In this aspect, they are tremendously different and complementary. The HD250 II is more similar to the HD800 (at least to my ears) in that it will not allow you to completely feel the complex interactions of the different instruments in their original locations. It gives you a good sense of the broad picture but won’t let you dig into it. It is a matter I guess of personal preferences and how you prefer to listen and enjoy your music.
 
As for the soundstage dimensions, the HD250 II is surprisingly wider (right to left) for a closed headphone, but DT48 is much deeper. Both have an “adaptive” soundstage in that sense that size will vary according to the recording.
 
Detail retrieval and resolution is impressive for both. They have nothing to be ashamed of even compared with the HD800 (talking from memory there). Maybe they play with a slight advantage for being closed back design. They both excel at low level resolution and convey amazing texture and information of the different tonality of instruments or voices. I can’t really split them on this aspect, because they present details in a slightly different manner. The HD250 II could first appear more detailed than the DT48 on short listen, but IMO, it is because the HD250 II is overall a slightly brighter headphone and tend to emphasis certain frequency ranges compared to the DT48. One thing is certain; I haven’t heard yet more detailed headphones than those 2. They are extremely revealing of any changes in upstream components.
 
Describing tonal balance differences is a difficult exercise, so I used a loudness intensity comparison method at several fixed frequency to illustrate my feelings as show below. This is using the DT48A as the reference at 0 at all frequencies. The result is a pretty faithful representation of the subjective listening impressions.
 

 
You can observe that the HD250 II hits very low where the DT48A starts rolling of below 70Hz. The low end response with the HD250 II is very dependant on the recording. It will sometimes feel a bit emphasized (I really believe it is revealing a recording issue in those cases), while most of the time, it will sound astonishingly deep and accurate but without being loose or slow at all. Candidate for best low end I have heard by far!  
 
The midrange energy is in a sense quite close between both headphones. I don’t find the midrange of the HD250 II to be that recessed as it is often said. The HD250 II midrange tone feels a little more lean or bright (maybe the dip around 200Hz or maybe emphasis in upper frequencies components), but yet is very well grounded and palpable. In fact, listening to vocal music, what differentiate the HD250 II from the DT48A is the overall tone they convey (and not the sound pressure): the DT48A is the warmer and more natural sounding headphone to my ears. The experience with the HD250 II feels less engaging for me and is more similar again to the HD800 (sort of shiny and glossy feeling on the midrange which doesn’t feel completely natural).
 
The HD250 II is also brighter than the DT48A as seen above. It might even be a little too bright for young ears (ear loss due to age). However, it does not appear to me as hard or harsh by any mean (at 35yo), but it will push forward certain frequencies and instruments when compared to the DT48A. Violins or acoustic guitars in particular will shine through the HD250 II.
 
Talking about dynamic, the DT48A has the edge there. The HD250 II will not be comfortable with very large SPL swing (large orchestra for example) and feel somehow constrain but it is no slouch either and will only show its limitation in demanding situation.  
 
Finally, one growing important aspect for me in the reproduction of music is the timing ability of the headphone (pace and rhythm or phase response). This is a very subjective aspect but I really feel some headphone do a better job than others (the T50Rp was a good example to my ears). And IMO, the DT48A is the more relaxed and mature headphone, more faithful at handling transients and silences… The HD250 II gives the feeling sometimes to push the music faster than what it would sound like, overlapping silences. I suspect (this is pure speculation) that the high frequency components of sounds are pushed forward during the transients and lead to this perceived sensation of speed. The DT48A offers a fuller sound, with a better density (alignment of frequencies in time?) and more organic feeling. This is especially noticeable in the high frequency, where the DT48A conveys a very realistic and true to life tone, unlike the HD250 II (or any other headphone I have heard for that matter). Yet, the HD250 II is coherent and consistent, which makes it sometimes fun to listen to.
 
I feel really impressed by the ratio cost/performance of the HD250 II. It really offers a lot for the money, and I have a hard time explaining why this headphone was discontinued by Sennheiser (what a shame). Or maybe it would just embarrass the HD800 too much… In fact, if you ask me to choose between the HD800 and HD250 II, I would without a doubt pick the latter. I will probably keep it as a very valid alternative to the DT48A. Now, I am eagerly waiting for my Audio-gd Ref 7.1 to show up next week and finally hear the DT48A in all its glory.

 

[Jap]

Question for Shamu: did you remove the foam that covers the transducers on the Senn HD250 Linear II to help bring the midrange forward more?
 
EDIT: I certainly agree with you that the HD 250 Linear II is a special phone. I just received mine and have to get my Headphile Black Gold (silver & copper) cable out of storage to see how good that phone really is. It sounds somewhat similar, but even better, than an unmodded HD25-1, and I know how that phone responded when I used the Black Gold cable on it. Talk about detail heaven! What will the HD250 Linear II sound like with its greatly extended bass and scintillating highs?
 
Removing the foam in front of the transducers pulls the "recessed" midrange forward some. (Removing the central foam un-recesses many Senn phones, apparently!) From past experience I know that the silver in the Black Gold will tighten the entire frequency range, pull the midrange forward a little more, sweeten the mids and treble, and lighten the bass a tad. The copper should extended the bass range and add some low end grunt or body to the mids. I expect it will end up as a fairly flat phone from deep bass to treble.
 
Regards,
 
J A P

 

[MDR30]

Very interesting reading, thanks. I'll compare the two when I get fresh pads for my HD250. Did you notice if the concave foam pad affects the sound?
 
 

 

[oldshoe99]

My feeling is that the current DT-48A with current oval pads (for music listening) is on a par with headphones in the $1200 or higher range, so if the HD250 is as good as the new DT-48A with new oval pads, then it would be the greatest stereo bargain since the Shure SRH-940.
​
BTW, I don't recall the DT-48A rolling off below 70 hz.  The bass below 70 is weaker than for example the Senn 800 by perhaps 5 db, but it stays that way all the way down, which is not a rolloff.
 
Why am I having disbelief that the HD250 has sound as good as a $1200 headphone?  Oh, I get it.  It's because you believe that the DT-48A sounds like a $200 headphone, or maybe just a $400 headphone.  I'll have to try to convince myself of that, but it's difficult when I have so many headphones from $500 to $1100 that sound so awful compared to the DT-48A.
 
EDIT: Oopsie!  Apparently the HD-250 II is discontinued?  How can such a great headphone at such an incredible price be discontinued?  How did I miss this thing?

 

[Deep Funk]

Busy, busy, busy? The HD265, its successor was a bad joke compared to the HD250 II. The Linear is one of the few Sennheisers I really liked yet I preferred the AKG-soundsignature. 
 
Headphones and price ranges are sometimes a farce i.m.h.o.  
 
 

 

[shamu144]

Sorry, I didn' t play with the foam... I reckon you could also build a system around the HD250 II to bring a little forward that midrange if needed. With 300 ohms, I have the feeling the HD250 II would be a fantastic pairing with some good tube amp. Of course, the UL is also a match made in heaven, since this is the headphone that Graham uses to design his gears

 
Both DT48A and HD250 II are transparent enough to let you easily tune your system to your personal preferences.
 
Quote:

Question for Shamu: did you remove the foam that covers the transducers on the Senn HD250 Linear II to help bring the midrange forward more?

 

 

[shamu144]

I tend to see this the other way around like Deep Funk. If headphones like the DT48A or HD250 II are considered great bargain by today's standards, it is because those standards are sometimes way off the line...
 
As per the low end roll off, well, the HD800 is certainly no bass monster neither and could use a bit more energy there as well... But as I said, this sub 50Hz response is not important to my ears and I am perfectly fine with the DT48A bass response, but I understand it can be crucial for some. This is where the HD250 II comes in.
 
 
Quote:

My feeling is that the current DT-48A with current oval pads (for music listening) is on a par with headphones in the $1200 or higher range, so if the HD250 is as good as the new DT-48A with new oval pads, then it would be the greatest stereo bargain since the Shure SRH-940.
​
BTW, I don't recall the DT-48A rolling off below 70 hz.  The bass below 70 is weaker than for example the Senn 800 by perhaps 5 db, but it stays that way all the way down, which is not a rolloff.
 
Why am I having disbelief that the HD250 has sound as good as a $1200 headphone?  Oh, I get it.  It's because you believe that the DT-48A sounds like a $200 headphone, or maybe just a $400 headphone.  I'll have to try to convince myself of that, but it's difficult when I have so many headphones from $500 to $1100 that sound so awful compared to the DT-48A.
 
EDIT: Oopsie!  Apparently the HD-250 II is discontinued?  How can such a great headphone at such an incredible price be discontinued?  How did I miss this thing?

 

 

[oldshoe99]

 
Quote:

I tend to see this the other way around like Deep Funk. If headphones like the DT48A or HD250 II are considered great bargain by today's standards, it is because those standards are sometimes way off the line...
 
As per the low end roll off, well, the HD800 is certainly no bass monster neither and could use a bit more energy there as well... But as I said, this sub 50Hz response is not important to my ears and I am perfectly fine with the DT48A bass response, but I understand it can be crucial for some. This is where the HD250 II comes in.
 
 


 

I'm not sure if this massive HD250 review makes sense in a DT-48 thread, but have you found any current items that actually compete with the current DT-48A?  Below $1000?  I read a review of the HD250 at a very reputable site that gave the midrange a score of 6 out of 10, and described the signature as the opposite of the DT-48A.  The 250 sig is U-shaped and the DT-48 the opposite of that.  So we could flood this topic with a thousand such non-applicable comparisons, and worse yet, comparisons to items that aren't even available, and to what end?  Look what Innerfidelity did?  Measured dips in the bass and treble that were several times larger than real life.  Not helpful at all!

 

[Jap]

 
Quote:

Sorry, I didn' t play with the foam... I reckon you could also build a system around the HD250 II to bring a little forward that midrange if needed. With 300 ohms, I have the feeling the HD250 II would be a fantastic pairing with some good tube amp. Of course, the UL is also a match made in heaven, since this is the headphone that Graham uses to design his gears

 
Both DT48A and HD250 II are transparent enough to let you easily tune your system to your personal preferences.
 
 

Actually, I began with the idea of adding the Senn HD650 as I moved from a mostly portable system to a portable-home system. The HD650 may have been the only open air design I kept. However, when I started seeing reports from reputable members that the discontinued HD250 Linear II had more detail than the HD650, I scoured the market for available units and quickly snagged a slightly used one from a member at Germany.
 
Because of my experience with the somewhat similar, though inferior, HD-25-1 and the AKG K81 (don't ask!!!), I have a good feel as to what I can expect from an HD250 with an enhanced cable. (I have a Black Gold cable from Headphile originally bought for the planned HD650.) As I have just added a powerhouse portable amp, the Triad Audio L3, and am looking to add a DAC (probably the Lavry DA11 or the Anedio D1), the HD250 and the Beyer DT48A would make great mainstays of a closed design/IEM headphone-based home system. I really ought to get a decent home amp eventually since the L3 is small enough for me to use on the go. I am also toying with the idea of the JHA 13Pro for maximum portability in a high end portable system. I already have the cheap and surprisingly clear MEElectronics A151-BK IEM for portability where there is moderate risk of theft.
 
The bass of the HD250 Linear II is heavenly deep, and it could be easily tightened and deepened even more by employing a silver/copper cable (e.g., Headphile's Black Gold or APureSound's V3). I have seen how the Black Gold cable transforms & elevates the workhorse HD25-1 into a very detailed listening instrument with a modest soundstage. I am already tempted to do likewise for the still-to-be-acquired DT48A, although I would probably use the APS V3 for that application. The DT48A is the cure for my extreme detail fetish, and the HD250 would more than satisfy my periodic needs for real cavernous bass.
 
I need to seriously review the features of the two well regarded DACs---Lavry DA11 and Anedio D1---and make a final decision in due time. Both appear to be popular with serious users doing studio/recording work who sing the praises of their transparency. The Anedio also supposedly does a superlative job of minimizing jitter.

 

[Jap]

Quote:

 

I'm not sure if this massive HD250 review makes sense in a DT-48 thread, but have you found any current items that actually compete with the current DT-48A?  Below $1000?  I read a review of the HD250 at a very reputable site that gave the midrange a score of 6 out of 10, and described the signature as the opposite of the DT-48A.  The 250 sig is U-shaped and the DT-48 the opposite of that.  So we could flood this topic with a thousand such non-applicable comparisons, and worse yet, comparisons to items that aren't even available, and to what end?  Look what Innerfidelity did?  Measured dips in the bass and treble that were several times larger than real life.  Not helpful at all!

 
Think of these two phones as aural complements or even polar opposites, both with high detail. The HD250 provides full frequency range enjoyment from reasonable highs to subterranean lows, while the DT48A serves as an upper bass to lower treble aural microscope.