The Beyerdynamic DT48 Arrives...

[shamu144]

Back some 50 years ago (maybe less considering the 25 ohms black model), there actually was a specifically rebranded NAGRA DT48, but it was called KUDELSKI DT48, as follows:
 

 
 
The young Stefan Kudelski was actually the founder of NAGRA if I am not mistaken.
 

 

[lejaz]

While I agree 100% I still don't find them ideal due to the weak bass. In spite of that, I'd give them a lot of head time if it wasn't for the discomfort issue. That's a bigger negative than the weak bass for me. The weak lows, I suppose, may partly be a fault of other components in my system. Nothing else I've heard comes close to those dt48 mids. though. I'll never part with them for the mids alone (unless someone sells me one of the vintage models that KBI raves about....cheap). If they were good enough for a three time Oscar winning film sound engineer, then that tells me something.
 
Quote:

With the permission of this long time profesional owner (30 years, movie industry) of the DT48 seen here: arts and movies DT48:
 
"The money is in the mid’s and high’s, and this is where the DT48′s are superb. More detailed with faster transient response than the HD25′s or the 280′s. Noise floor elements like low level cable faults, ballast noise, rfi. emi, camera noise, etc, all tend to jump out at you with DT48′s. You can spot the problems before they ruin takes. The heavy construction yields excellent isolation, even in noisey conditions. You are listening to your system, not to a mix of ambient sound plus your system. Yes, they start out feeling heavy and too tight (head-in-a-vise). You can, however, get used to the weight and the headband can be stretched out to be less like a vise.  They are very rugged. Mine may well outlast me.  I’ve mixed with the HD25′s and I liked them, they really are comfortable, but I felt I was missing the subtle detail in the upper mid’s and in the highs. They sounded smooth and warm,  not really what I look for in monitors. I like the take-no-prisoners, clinical sound of the DT48′s. There is a lot of great new gear and there are a few pieces of great old gear that offer something the new stuff can’t quite capture.  I know I’m not alone, there are a lot of geezers with DT48′s doing big pictures, quite a few younger guys too."
 
I completely agree with this statement. Your DT48 will reveal more of your system than you might like, but the DT48 is not the culprit of this. Fine tune your system and the DT48 can reward you with the most musical experience.

 

 

[shamu144]

Certainly system matching as well as suspensions break-in plays a role in the bass response, but I tend to think getting a good seal is even more important as shown in the previous pages measurements available. Maybe your problem of confort/fit is indeed resulting in a less than ideal seal, which could explain your perception of weak bass. I agree they have weak sub-bass (below 50Hz) but should not be weak in the 50Hz-100Hz range.
 
Is it the clamping force resulting in disconfort? Have you tried to put your DT48 on a large book (slightly larger than your head) for some days...
 
Quote:

While I agree 100% I still don't find them ideal due to the weak bass. In spite of that, I'd give them a lot of head time if it wasn't for the discomfort issue. That's a bigger negative than the weak bass for me. The weak lows, I suppose, may partly be a fault of other components in my system. Nothing else I've heard comes close to those dt48 mids. though. I'll never part with them for the mids alone (unless someone sells me one of the vintage models that KBI raves about....cheap). If they were good enough for a three time Oscar winning film sound engineer, then that tells me something.

 

 

[svyr]

Certainly system matching as well as suspensions break-in plays a role in the bass response, but I tend to think getting a good seal is even more important as shown in the previous pages measurements available. Maybe your problem of confort/fit is indeed resulting in a less than ideal seal, which could explain your perception of weak bass. I agree they have weak sub-bass (below 50Hz) but should not be weak in the 50Hz-100Hz range.
 
Is it the clamping force resulting in disconfort? Have you tried to put your DT48 on a large book (slightly larger than your head) for some days...
 


 

idk mate, the seal for me was nearly as good as my pair of custom IEMs (aside from the elephant squeezing my head), but I had to explicitly boost the 60-100hz range by 5db(60hz) to 2db (100hz)

 

[shamu144]

Sure they are no bass monsters, and it depends on your references/preferences.
 
Still, with the equal loudness curves in mind, a "progresively" weaker bass response perceived does happen in real life...

 
Quote:

idk mate, the seal for me was nearly as good as my pair of custom IEMs (aside from the elephant squeezing my head), but I had to explicitly boost the 60-100hz range by 5db(60hz) to 2db (100hz)

 

 

[svyr]

Sure they are no bass monsters, and it depends on your references/preferences.
 
Still, with the equal loudness curves in mind, a "progresively" weaker bass response perceived does happen in real life...

 


 

and a roll-off < 100hz

 

[shamu144]

Absolutely

 


 
Quote:

and a roll-off < 100hz

 

 

[svyr]

Absolutely

 


 


 

so coupled with the DT48e FR chart that makes the roll-off even worse (perceived deficiency per ELC + actual of DT48e)

 

[shamu144]

When you look at this image relating to a live performance in an auditorium (acoustic and non amplified music), not only the sub-bass need to be played at much higher SPL than the higher frequencies to be perceived at an equivalent loudness, but the further you move away from the source, and the less bass you perceive in relation to other sounds.
 
 

 
 
 

 

[svyr]

When you look at this image relating to a live performance in an auditorium (acoustic and non amplified music), not only the sub-bass need to be played at much higher SPL than the higher frequencies to be perceived at an equivalent loudness, but the further you move away from the source, and the less bass you perceive in relation to other sounds.
 
 

 
 
 

kay... Interesting but somewhat off-topic (the implication of moving to a lower ELC (with a faster perceived roll-off) as your intensity decreases with distance from the source). Would be interesting how they compensate for concerts. I'm guessing by playing louder so the average listen hears about right... (but then the ones at the front - too loud, back - too quiet)...Maybe just using multiple speakers

 

[shamu144]

In Beyer's FR measurments of the DT48A with an ear coupler, there is absolutely no bass roll off in the <100Hz range. Tyll's own measurments show only 5dB down at 30Hz. We are not talking about a significant roll off in the bass response according to the FR of the DT48E, but rather of the perceived bass loudness roll off.
 
Now you have a very valid point and raise the issue of what can be considered a "natural" roll off.... I have no clue. Mic placement to reinforce bass in recordings as compared to real life situation, bass heavy recordings, actual recording distance from the source, listening volume influence.... There are so many variables.
 
The only thing that is sure is that you brain expect a roll off in the <100Hz range. We are programmed for that. You might disagree with your brain but then things can start sounding unnatural. In the end, it is really a matter of preferences/references. I am not saying I wouldn't enjoy 5dB more in the sub bass response of the DT48A, but my brain got used to its actual bass response quite easily.
 
Quote:

so coupled with the DT48e FR chart that makes the roll-off even worse (perceived deficiency per ELC + actual of DT48e)

 

 

[svyr]

>Now you have a very valid point and raise the issue of what can be considered a "natural" roll off.... I have no clue. Mic placement to reinforce bass in recordings as compared to real life situation, bass heavy recordings, actual recording distance from the source, listening volume influence.... There are so many variables.

that, I can't argue with.


>I am not saying I wouldn't enjoy 5dB more in the sub bass response of the DT48A, but my brain got used to its actual bass response quite easily.

I counter by claiming the at some point as you go down the (perceived roll-off - any bump in the bass in the FR) you go past the point where other things start masking the 'remaining bass' and you potentially lose perceived resolution/clarity in the low end.
Whether compensating the perceived roll-off partially masks the mids is another question.

 

[lejaz]

My apologies are in order.....I just found out that there's a significant difference between the right and left side on my dt48. The bass on the left side is significantly better....the right side is VERY weak...with somewhat less overall volume also. So I guess when combining both ears I was getting the impression that the bass was very lacking. I found a song with the bass mixed right down the middle and the difference between the right and left was very significant. With the k240DF it was equal on both sides. I had the volume on my amp way too high a while back when I plugged them in and maybe I damaged the driver. The bass on the left side is actually surprisingly good when I take off the right ear piece. Now I'm left with the problem of trying to remedy this....sheeeeesh! Any idea what could cause this? Is the driver damaged? It's not the pads/seal. I tried making a good tight seal and no improvement. The cable was altered by a previous owner to make it one sided. To say I'm P.O.'d is an understatement!

 

[Deep Funk]

Measure and recable? Sorry dude...

 

[lejaz]

Quote:

Measure and recable? Sorry dude...

What do you mean by 'measure'? I'm pretty sure they were damaged when I purchased them....and from one of our forum members yet. If you look at my posts from the start I was always complaining about the lack of bass with them. The other frequencies don't seem to be affected other than slightly less volume. What a bummer!!!! And what an idiot I am for never having compared the sides independently before.