[Doc Sarvis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbhaub Sure to get some rebukes -- but I like the Peter Tiboris recording on Bridge. There are no big name soloists, the orchestra is a 2nd rate one from eastern Europe. But it has one thing the others don't: Mahler's reorchestration. I know some purists will have a heart attack, but frankly, Mahler -- one of the greatest orchestrators ever -- did his work to make the symphony sound "better" when played with a large orchestra using modern instruments. Especially in the Scherzo, it works so well. I think Beethoven himself would have used horns in the same way if he had the advantage of valved instruments. I don't like just any tamperings: Stokowski goes too far, even though it is thrilling. If I had to choose a straight 9th, I'd take the Blomstedt, with Dohnanyi/Cleveland on Telarc a fine alternative.

Sounds very interesting. Fortunately, in this crowd, there's no either/or alternative necessary. The more the better!!!

Edit: Just ordered it!

 

[Doc Sarvis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunnyears DarkAngel, Watch out for the Zinman. He has some really awful tempos in his 9th -- way too fast! the Norrington tempos seem the closest to what Beethoven intended and it's a very good recording which I much prefer to the Gardiner.

FWIW I like the Zinman 9th a lot more than the Gardiner 9th. It's fast, but the Gardiner HIP just isn't grand enough. Beethoven would've wanted more IMO. That's why the Mahler re-orch sounds so interesting (see above).

I think my favorite 9th overall is the Leinsdorf.

 

[Bunnyears]

Doc,

The zinman certainly has a lot more punch than the Gardiner, but his tempo choices are a bit ott. Try and get the Norrington 9th or the Hogwood. I'm sure you will really enjoy them.

 

[DarkAngel]

Well revisited MacKerras/EMI and Abbado/DG 2000 and neither is quite good enough for current top 5 list.........but perhaps one from the HIP list below will rise to the challenge and diversify list:

Hogwood/Lyre 63:26
Zinman/Arte Nova 59:24
Norrington/Hanssler 61:28
Norrington/Virgin 62:24
Gardiner/Archiv 59:43

For Reference:
Karajan/DG 67:01 (1963)
Furtwangler/EMI GROTC 74:23 (1951)

Quite a range of styles if you contrast run times of Zinman vs Furtwangler

 

[Bunnyears]

DarkAngel,

I have the Furtwangler too, and after listening to the faster HIP recordings, it really seemed lacking in pace. I recommend that you not listen to it until the hip performances fade a bit.

Between the Norrington (Hannsler), Hogwood, Gardiner and Zinman, I probably like the Norrington and Hogwood best. I don't have the earlier Norrington cycle (virgin), but I imagine I'll pick it up eventually. Zinman is too rushed and the Gardiner just misses for some reason. I'll have to listen again because I don't remember off hand what I didn't care for. Btw, I agree about the MacKerras. It just misses for me as well. On balance, the Gardiner cycle is more satisfying.

Have you been able to pick up either the Vannska or the Thomas Fey Beethoven entries? They are well worth it.

 

[PSmith08]

Furtwangler, compared to most, adopted slow tempi. However, in '42 especially, there was an intensity and an emotional aspect that speed alone cannot create. One must also remember that the 9th, for Furtwangler, was some sort of communal rite. He was in no hurry, and by taking his sweet time, he builds up to an unforgettable climax.

That having been said, a faster Beethoven is really an appealing Beethoven. It's hard to say what he would have wanted, but his scores - so I'm told - have an emphasis on drive and speed. He is certainly more exciting that way.

 

[saint.panda]

I don't have a big classical music vocabulary so I'm not exactly sure how to express myself but I have four Beethoven 9s (2 bought on darkangel's advice

) and was wondering whether there is a more melody-emphasised, perhaps Schubertian (?) Beethoven 9.

 

[Bunnyears]

Saint Panda,

Which ones do you have? We really can't recommend something without knowing what your reference is.

Btw, Beethoven's ninth is really a magisterial work. From those opening notes, so pared down and menacingly soft through the build up of those opening fifths, it is immediately apparent that this is not a work that lends itself to Schubertian interpretation. Schubert was really an incredibly social and extroverted personality which shows in his music. For me he really comes closer in feeling to Mozart than Beethoven. But, if you want tuneful and melodic Beethoven, why don't you try Beethoven's Symphony No. 6, the Pastoral. Great B6s have been recorded by Christopher Hogwood, George Szell, and Gunter Wand. There are others, but those are the ones that spring to mind immediately. Oh yes, David Zinman has a good 6th with the Zurich TonHalle Orchester as well, but I don't know if that's available as a single cd. Whatever you do, avoid any von Karajan B6. The man really did not care for that work and it shows in all of the recordings he did of it.

 

[bigshot]

For a more melodic Beethoven, you might try Giulini. He is a little slower than some, but he phrases very beautifully. But that said, the bunny is right. Beethoven was a very angry soul, and his music sometimes reflects that. The pastoral is a great recommendation... Pastoral+Giulini might be just the ticket for you.

See ya
Steve

 

[saint.panda]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunnyears Which ones do you have? We really can't recommend something without knowing what your reference is.

Oh yeah, sorry. I have Karajan 77, Bernstein 80, Zinman and one by a German composer Gielen. As for a more Schubertian approach, I was thinking in the direction of how Tintner approaches Bruckner as opposed to how for example Karajan plays Bruckner. Not that either is better, just something different for a change. Regarding Beethoven 6, I really love that work and would actually prefer Bohm to Zinman, especially the first movement. But I'll need to hear the other three you mentioned.

 

[saint.panda]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot For a more melodic Beethoven, you might try Giulini. He is a little slower than some, but he phrases very beautifully. But that said, the bunny is right. Beethoven was a very angry soul, and his music sometimes reflects that. The pastoral is a great recommendation... Pastoral+Giulini might be just the ticket for you. See ya Steve

Hm, another one to hear. Thanks!

 

[Bunnyears]

Well, the Ninth that really comes to mind for you now is, unfortunately, afaik only part of a set. I'm thinking the Blomstedt 9th would be perfect for you. The set that it's part of is the Brilliant Classics Complete Beethoven Symphonies. I like that 9th because it probably has some of the best singing I've ever heard in the symphony. Here's a link in case you decide to explore. The rest of Blomstedt's cycle is very well done, and is probably one of the better big-band Beethoven cycles.

 

[saint.panda]

Is it the one with the Staatskapelle Dresde? I found the box set for just 17€ new from Amazon, which would be a really good deal for a whole Beethoven set. Please tell me it's that one.

edit: nevermind, just followed your link.

I'll include this in my next amazon purchase and if it's not too my tastes, there are always people in need of a complete Beethoven set.

 

[Bunnyears]

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint.panda Is it the one with the Staatskapelle Dresde? I found the box set for just 17€ new from Amazon, which would be a really good deal for a whole Beethoven set. Please tell me it's that one. edit: nevermind, just followed your link. I'll include this in my next amazon purchase and if it's not too my tastes, there are always people in need of a complete Beethoven set.

that's the one! Good luck. I really enjoy that 9th. the tempos aren't as fast as the HIP performances, but they aren't so slow that they get on your nerves either.

 

[mbhaub]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot Beethoven was a very angry soul, and his music sometimes reflects that.

Angry? Sometimes, but then he had a huge sense of humor, too. I attended a performance of the 3rd in Detroit several years back, and I swear, people were chuckling in the last movement -- the conductor, Neeme Jarvi, understood the work perfectly and brought the humor out. Yes, Beethoven could storm the heavens, but he had a gentler side, and his whole range of emotions were captured in his music. The Scherzo of B9 also has a lot of humor, as does the last movement tenor solo (Froh! Froh!...) if the conductor is attuned to it, and many are not. They take Beethoven so seriously! So many of the large orchestra versions from the 60s were led by conductors who never seemed to laugh, or even smile: Leinsdorf, Szell, Klemperer, Walter and company. So, don't believe the image of an "angry" Beethoven. (Bernard Herrmann -- there was an angry man!)